Pentax version of the Sony a77 coming ?

zxaar · 08-31-2011, 12:28 AM

Originally posted by Emacs

I've predicted several month ago Samsung will own Sony as a sensor maker (technologically) since sams tends to be dominating company in all areas they participate. I know they spend on development very much, but the most amazing thing is how effective their departments are. In fact, their efficiency is about of one of small western company.

Just like Sony is dominating company in wherever they participate. so far in terms of sensors, Samsung is not dominating the market. The major share of sensor market is sony (P&S plus DSLRs).

Originally posted by Emacs

So, it's clear the latest samsung sensor outperforms noisy sony one by a very large margin. But I won't buy pentax camera with it cause I don't interested in APS-C cameras for my full frame lenses anymore (will likely buy nx20 + 16 + 20 + 30 pancakes)

And you know all this because you tested both in controlled settings like DXOMark does.

elho_cid · 08-31-2011, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by zxaar

Just like Sony is dominating company in wherever they participate. so far in terms of sensors, Samsung is not dominating the market. The major share of sensor market is sony (P&S plus DSLRs).

Nope. Sony is not major share at all. Not even the biggest supplier. Of course, neither is Samsung.

Emacs · 08-31-2011, 01:04 AM

Originally posted by zxaar

Just like Sony is dominating company in wherever they participate. so far in terms of sensors, Samsung is not dominating the market. The major share of sensor market is sony (P&S plus DSLRs).

I especially emphasized technologically, which is not the same as «market share». But the latter will be owned by samsung too in the near future without any doubt. Meet the new king

ogl · 08-31-2011, 01:15 AM

Originally posted by zxaar

Just like Sony is dominating company in wherever they participate. so far in terms of sensors, Samsung is not dominating the market. The major share of sensor market is sony (P&S plus DSLRs).
.

It's not true. Sony is one of the leaders, but Samsung too.

it's only CMOS image sensors market share.

The situation of CCD market share is different. CCD is only 10% of sensor's market now.

Global players are
Canon Inc. (Japan)
DALSA Corporation (Canada)
Eastman Kodak Company (US)
FujiFilm Corporation (Japan)
MagnaChip Semiconductor (South Korea)
Macronix International Co., Ltd. (Taiwan)
Micron Technology Inc. (US)
Mitsubishi Electric Corporation (Japan)
OmniVision Technologies Inc. (US)
PixArt Imaging Inc. (Taiwan)
Panasonic Corporation (Japan)
Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. (South Korea)
Sharp Corporation (Japan)
Sharp Microelectronics of the Americas (US)
Sony Corporation (Japan)
STMicroelectronics (Switzerland)
Toshiba Corporation (Japan)

Last edited by ogl; 08-31-2011 at 01:28 AM.

Philippos · 08-31-2011, 04:47 AM

Originally posted by joe.penn

Shooting some water polo, let down by the FPS and fooling around with panorama all to come up with "On top of that, the A77is a really good camera" - all within an hour? Come on Man!!!!

Hey Popular Photog, can I borrow your A77 that you have for review so I can run outside and shoot some water sports with it? <- (me calling right now)

Seriously though, not busting your coconuts or anything but you didn't take no time jumping on the bandwagon did you. You could be right though...

I guess I have to be a little more detailed then...

My company is a major sponsor of this event:
Welcome to the home page
So, my past days have been spent by the pool, ensuring my company's presentation.

My good friend with the A77, came by the stadium to visit me, on his way to Mt. Pelion ( PELION IMAGES GREECE VOLOS SKIATHOS (SPORADES) MOURESI TRIKERI GALLERY BEACHES MAKRINITSA POTISTIKA BEACH HANIA SKI RUN PELION PEOPLE MUNICIPALITY FLORA ARCHITECTURE IMAGES PICTURES AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHY FAUNA & Pelion Photographs Images of Mount Pelion Greece Photo Gallery Volos Pilio Pelion Photos ) where he would spent his weekend "evaluating" the camera.
All I could do is take pictures of the water polo game being played at the time, and the landscape surrounding the athletic complex.

The sweet panorama works, but it produces a 24Mpx image, which in my mind beats the point of sweeping a high resolution camera (the sweeping image has as many pixels as a single shot).

If I came up as negative towards the A77'a FPS, it's my mistake. I loved the A77's high speed photography. 12fps at full resolution is great with no vibrations from the mirror assembly or any mechanical noise. It is just that if your action exceeds one second in duration, you might miss the end.

And please tell me that if your friend worked at Popular Photo (or any other magazine) and had a new camera for testing you wouldn't offer to "help" him with it.

I liked the A77. I liked the fact that it has so many things to offer at the same price range of the K5.

I also disliked it because it made me doudt that Pentax can cope with a camera like this at a price like this...

uccemebug · 08-31-2011, 04:56 AM

Originally posted by ogl

It's not true. Sony is one of the leaders, but Samsung too.

Now that's an unconsolidated market. And there's a Canadian chip manufacturer? Live and learn....

Originally posted by Philippos

I guess I have to be a little more detailed then...

Not sure that you owed anyone an explanation, but it sounds like a fun opportunity. Thanks for posting your thoughts on the camera.

elho_cid · 08-31-2011, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by Philippos

I also disliked it because it made me doudt that Pentax can cope with a camera like this at a price like this...

On the other hand, Sony never made a camera like K-5 at any price. So why bother? And some new Pentax camera next year will be better again.

Winder · 08-31-2011, 06:30 AM

Originally posted by ogl

It's not true. Sony is one of the leaders, but Samsung too)

If I am not mistaken, Sony purchased Toshiba's CMOS manufacturing division last year. That would make Sony much bigger than what the 2009 graph shows.

joe.penn · 08-31-2011, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by Philippos

I guess I have to be a little more detailed then...

Really you don't

ogl · 08-31-2011, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by Winder

If I am not mistaken, Sony purchased Toshiba's CMOS manufacturing division last year. That would make Sony much bigger than what the 2009 graph shows.

it's mistake.
CMOS Image Sensors - Toshiba America Electronic Components, Inc.
http://www.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/eng/product/sensor/index.html

http://www.engadget.com/2011/07/08/toshiba-unveils-new-cmos-sensor-flaunts-smaller-pixels/

philbaum · 08-31-2011, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by ogl

It's not true. Sony is one of the leaders, but Samsung too.
)

Thanks for the graphs. It explains a lot as to why Sony takes the "enlightened" approach in offering their
sensors to any camera maker like Pentax. To drive Pentax into some other sensor maker just causes lost market share to their own sensor division. They also seem to have the hot hand in designing high iso performing
sensors. From what little i've read, i don't think Canon has done as well in high iso capabilities since the D2 was released.

**ManuH** · 08-31-2011, 09:36 AM

Originally posted by elho_cid

And some new Pentax camera next year will be better again.

Maybe, maybe not. To process 24MP @12fps it needs almost 3 times the processing power of the K-5. And is 12fps with a mirror technically feasible? The best pro Canon and Nikon top at 10-11fps. Sony was clever and showing their muscles on this one, although personally I don't really need 12fps and 24MP. It will be interesting to see how Canon and Nikon react to this. Clearly the EVF will sooner than later take over the OVF on almost every front (faster, cheaper, bigger, clearer). Let's be honest OVF have not much to improve on while EVF are progressing quickly.

johnmflores · 08-31-2011, 10:23 AM

My what a short-term memory we have! People are slagging the newest Sony chip as if it were their first one. How quickly we forget that they've produced some very nice sensors, including the ones in the much-admired K-x, K-r, and K-5.

I can't imagine that they've taken a step back in IQ for the sake of pixels and just crossed their fingers that nobody noticed. What's more likely is that the new sensor is much less forgiving of less-than-optimal conditions, and any imperfection along the way (glass, support, technique, etc...) is more readily captured....

tuco · 08-31-2011, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by ManuH

...
Clearly the EVF will sooner than later take over the OVF on almost every front (faster, cheaper, bigger, clearer). Let's be honest OVF have not much to improve on while EVF are progressing quickly.

And I predict that the EVF will one day have a "night vision" augmentation option.

eddie1960 · 08-31-2011, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by zxaar

Just like Sony is dominating company in wherever they participate. so far in terms of sensors, Samsung is not dominating the market. The major share of sensor market is sony (P&S plus DSLRs).

.

You know of course Sony is partnered with Samsung for the LCD panels for their biggest markets. Sony hasn't dominated anything in a long time as far as I am concerned (well I'll make an exception they do still do pretty well in consumer video cameras but in the pro end they are taking a beating)

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08-31-2011, 12:28 AM	#121
zxaar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: kobe/japan Posts: 510	Originally posted by Emacs I've predicted several month ago Samsung will own Sony as a sensor maker (technologically) since sams tends to be dominating company in all areas they participate. I know they spend on development very much, but the most amazing thing is how effective their departments are. In fact, their efficiency is about of one of small western company. Just like Sony is dominating company in wherever they participate. so far in terms of sensors, Samsung is not dominating the market. The major share of sensor market is sony (P&S plus DSLRs). Originally posted by Emacs So, it's clear the latest samsung sensor outperforms noisy sony one by a very large margin. But I won't buy pentax camera with it cause I don't interested in APS-C cameras for my full frame lenses anymore (will likely buy nx20 + 16 + 20 + 30 pancakes) And you know all this because you tested both in controlled settings like DXOMark does.

08-31-2011, 12:46 AM	#122
elho_cid Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Prague Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,199	Originally posted by zxaar Just like Sony is dominating company in wherever they participate. so far in terms of sensors, Samsung is not dominating the market. The major share of sensor market is sony (P&S plus DSLRs). Nope. Sony is not major share at all. Not even the biggest supplier. Of course, neither is Samsung.

08-31-2011, 01:04 AM	#123
Emacs Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Moscow Posts: 1,223	Originally posted by zxaar Just like Sony is dominating company in wherever they participate. so far in terms of sensors, Samsung is not dominating the market. The major share of sensor market is sony (P&S plus DSLRs). I especially emphasized technologically, which is not the same as «market share». But the latter will be owned by samsung too in the near future without any doubt. Meet the new king

08-31-2011, 01:15 AM	#124
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by zxaar Just like Sony is dominating company in wherever they participate. so far in terms of sensors, Samsung is not dominating the market. The major share of sensor market is sony (P&S plus DSLRs). . It's not true. Sony is one of the leaders, but Samsung too. it's only CMOS image sensors market share. The situation of CCD market share is different. CCD is only 10% of sensor's market now. Global players are Canon Inc. (Japan) DALSA Corporation (Canada) Eastman Kodak Company (US) FujiFilm Corporation (Japan) MagnaChip Semiconductor (South Korea) Macronix International Co., Ltd. (Taiwan) Micron Technology Inc. (US) Mitsubishi Electric Corporation (Japan) OmniVision Technologies Inc. (US) PixArt Imaging Inc. (Taiwan) Panasonic Corporation (Japan) Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. (South Korea) Sharp Corporation (Japan) Sharp Microelectronics of the Americas (US) Sony Corporation (Japan) STMicroelectronics (Switzerland) Toshiba Corporation (Japan) Last edited by ogl; 08-31-2011 at 01:28 AM.

08-31-2011, 04:47 AM	#125
Philippos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Volos - Greece Posts: 178	Originally posted by joe.penn Shooting some water polo, let down by the FPS and fooling around with panorama all to come up with "On top of that, the A77is a really good camera" - all within an hour? Come on Man!!!! Hey Popular Photog, can I borrow your A77 that you have for review so I can run outside and shoot some water sports with it? <- (me calling right now) Seriously though, not busting your coconuts or anything but you didn't take no time jumping on the bandwagon did you. You could be right though... I guess I have to be a little more detailed then... My company is a major sponsor of this event: Welcome to the home page So, my past days have been spent by the pool, ensuring my company's presentation. My good friend with the A77, came by the stadium to visit me, on his way to Mt. Pelion ( PELION IMAGES GREECE VOLOS SKIATHOS (SPORADES) MOURESI TRIKERI GALLERY BEACHES MAKRINITSA POTISTIKA BEACH HANIA SKI RUN PELION PEOPLE MUNICIPALITY FLORA ARCHITECTURE IMAGES PICTURES AERIAL PHOTOGRAPHY FAUNA & Pelion Photographs Images of Mount Pelion Greece Photo Gallery Volos Pilio Pelion Photos ) where he would spent his weekend "evaluating" the camera. All I could do is take pictures of the water polo game being played at the time, and the landscape surrounding the athletic complex. The sweet panorama works, but it produces a 24Mpx image, which in my mind beats the point of sweeping a high resolution camera (the sweeping image has as many pixels as a single shot). If I came up as negative towards the A77'a FPS, it's my mistake. I loved the A77's high speed photography. 12fps at full resolution is great with no vibrations from the mirror assembly or any mechanical noise. It is just that if your action exceeds one second in duration, you might miss the end. And please tell me that if your friend worked at Popular Photo (or any other magazine) and had a new camera for testing you wouldn't offer to "help" him with it. I liked the A77. I liked the fact that it has so many things to offer at the same price range of the K5. I also disliked it because it made me doudt that Pentax can cope with a camera like this at a price like this...

08-31-2011, 04:56 AM	#126
uccemebug Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 962	Originally posted by ogl It's not true. Sony is one of the leaders, but Samsung too. Now that's an unconsolidated market. And there's a Canadian chip manufacturer? Live and learn.... Originally posted by Philippos I guess I have to be a little more detailed then... Not sure that you owed anyone an explanation, but it sounds like a fun opportunity. Thanks for posting your thoughts on the camera.

08-31-2011, 06:04 AM	#127
elho_cid Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Prague Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,199	Originally posted by Philippos I also disliked it because it made me doudt that Pentax can cope with a camera like this at a price like this... On the other hand, Sony never made a camera like K-5 at any price. So why bother? And some new Pentax camera next year will be better again.

08-31-2011, 06:30 AM	#128
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by ogl It's not true. Sony is one of the leaders, but Samsung too) If I am not mistaken, Sony purchased Toshiba's CMOS manufacturing division last year. That would make Sony much bigger than what the 2009 graph shows.

08-31-2011, 06:34 AM	#129
joe.penn Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Maryland (Right Outside Washington DC) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,902	Originally posted by Philippos I guess I have to be a little more detailed then... Really you don't

08-31-2011, 07:33 AM	#130
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by Winder If I am not mistaken, Sony purchased Toshiba's CMOS manufacturing division last year. That would make Sony much bigger than what the 2009 graph shows. it's mistake. CMOS Image Sensors - Toshiba America Electronic Components, Inc. http://www.semicon.toshiba.co.jp/eng/product/sensor/index.html http://www.engadget.com/2011/07/08/toshiba-unveils-new-cmos-sensor-flaunts-smaller-pixels/

08-31-2011, 09:09 AM	#131
philbaum Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Port Townsend, Washington State, USA Posts: 3,659	Originally posted by ogl It's not true. Sony is one of the leaders, but Samsung too. ) Thanks for the graphs. It explains a lot as to why Sony takes the "enlightened" approach in offering their sensors to any camera maker like Pentax. To drive Pentax into some other sensor maker just causes lost market share to their own sensor division. They also seem to have the hot hand in designing high iso performing sensors. From what little i've read, i don't think Canon has done as well in high iso capabilities since the D2 was released.

08-31-2011, 09:36 AM	#132
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by elho_cid And some new Pentax camera next year will be better again. Maybe, maybe not. To process 24MP @12fps it needs almost 3 times the processing power of the K-5. And is 12fps with a mirror technically feasible? The best pro Canon and Nikon top at 10-11fps. Sony was clever and showing their muscles on this one, although personally I don't really need 12fps and 24MP. It will be interesting to see how Canon and Nikon react to this. Clearly the EVF will sooner than later take over the OVF on almost every front (faster, cheaper, bigger, clearer). Let's be honest OVF have not much to improve on while EVF are progressing quickly.

08-31-2011, 10:23 AM	#133
johnmflores Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Somerville, NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,361	My what a short-term memory we have! People are slagging the newest Sony chip as if it were their first one. How quickly we forget that they've produced some very nice sensors, including the ones in the much-admired K-x, K-r, and K-5. I can't imagine that they've taken a step back in IQ for the sake of pixels and just crossed their fingers that nobody noticed. What's more likely is that the new sensor is much less forgiving of less-than-optimal conditions, and any imperfection along the way (glass, support, technique, etc...) is more readily captured....

08-31-2011, 10:36 AM	#134
tuco Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Pugetopolis Posts: 11,029	Originally posted by ManuH ... Clearly the EVF will sooner than later take over the OVF on almost every front (faster, cheaper, bigger, clearer). Let's be honest OVF have not much to improve on while EVF are progressing quickly. And I predict that the EVF will one day have a "night vision" augmentation option.

08-31-2011, 10:49 AM	#135
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,667	Originally posted by zxaar Just like Sony is dominating company in wherever they participate. so far in terms of sensors, Samsung is not dominating the market. The major share of sensor market is sony (P&S plus DSLRs). . You know of course Sony is partnered with Samsung for the LCD panels for their biggest markets. Sony hasn't dominated anything in a long time as far as I am concerned (well I'll make an exception they do still do pretty well in consumer video cameras but in the pro end they are taking a beating)