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12-01-2007, 06:14 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chocolar Quote
I just don't understand when people keep comparing the k10 with cameras costing twice as much, you don't compare a $20,000 Camry with a $40,000 Lexus ES350? Thank you.
But... we're not. Not at all. We were talking about high ISO performance i.e. 'clean-ness' of images at higher sensitivities. In this area, the K10d is (I'm sure someone will disagree but I feel confident saying this) beaten by other cameras most notably Canons, whose 20D for example is older and cheaper than the K10d, not costing twice as much. The K10d is very good value, no one is doubting that, but it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't handle images at high ISOs as well as some other models (and doesn't offer ISO 3200 at all), and the question is whether Pentax plans to focus on this area in their next models.

QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
No it doesn't avoid the High ISO question. It puts a price on it. So what is your answer? Are you willing to pay for the k25D which gives you the High ISO or will you sacrifice some High ISO performance for the lower priced K20D?
My apologies, I missed the part where the hypothetical K25d matches the D300 "in every category" presumably including high ISO performance. OK OK so you answered a question with a question and want us to answer your question instead of the original one ... well I would buy the K25D. At the higher price. (By the way, if the K25D comes in 18 months with the same specs the D300 has now, I would expect it to cost a bit less than $1700). But I'd get the more expensive one because better high ISO performance is one of the more important factors to me, like it is to switters... as one might expect in a thread asking whether the new model/s will have better high ISO performance

12-01-2007, 06:17 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chocolar Quote
I just don't understand when people keep comparing the k10 with cameras costing twice as much, you don't compare a $20,000 Camry with a $40,000 Lexus ES350? Thank you.
Well that just prooves one thing. K10D is comparable with MUCH more costly cameras, that use much newer technology. Noone will seriously compare Canon 350D with Nikon D300, right? While people keep takling about K10D and D300 still. Makes me more and more proud I've chosen Pentax side ^^.
12-01-2007, 08:09 AM   #18
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Zaphod, the thing is, if you take details into account znd not only noise, Pentax does better than Nikon,Sony, Oly blabla, ther's just Canon being better.

If you lika flat plastic images, the D80 is indeed very good ...
12-01-2007, 08:17 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by lol101 Quote

My experience is that in these conditions (low light + quasi random fast movements), it is just impossible to rely on AF, even with the best ones (granted I didn't try the D2x or 1DMkII, just D200 + 17-55f2.8 AF-S and 30D+17-55f2.8 IS USM).

Clean high ISO would be good though but a good use of flash can help quite a bit.
It's not really perfection that I'm seeking - just improvement. And I'm quite certain a D300 would be an improvement over the K10D I have now. It remains to be seen how much of an improvement the K10D "upgrade" will be. What I'm looking to do is increase my percentage of keepers. I don't need to get to 100%, but I'm confident that a new camera body will help.

I've got an AF540 flash with a Demb DFD Diffuser Pro bounce card and diffuser. I do use this set-up when the light is just too low to get an good shot, but it's very bulky and heavy. I'd much prefer to use natural light, and as I said in a previous post, I've determined that in the environments I commonly shoot in, a couple extra stops would do it.

My needs are pretty specific here. I've even considered "downgrading" to a K100D Super, since I've seen some pretty good samples at ISO 3200. However, I've also heard that the AF in low light is even worse than the K10D, so while it addresses one problem it may make another worse. The price sure is right, though - $350 after rebate!!

As far as lenses for the D300, my needs are again simple. I'd probably get an 18-50 Sigma MACRO, and a couple of primes - a 50/1.8 and 85/1.8. That's about $800. Selling my current Pentax lenses would more than cover that.

Frankly I love my K10D in every other way, and the Limited primes I have (DA21, FA43, FA77) are just amazing. I really don't want to sell that stuff and move to Nikon or Canon. I shot in Canon before, and was very happy with my switch to Pentax. But over time what I photograph has changed and thus my needs have changed commensurately.

I don't see any huge disadvantage to waiting until January to see what Pentax announces. If it looks like it won't meet my needs, D300s will still be out there - and probably cheaper (by a little bit) than they are now. I might miss some shots over the Christmas season, but oh well - it's really not the end of the world. They're just photographs.

12-01-2007, 09:23 AM   #20
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It's my turn to apologize

QuoteOriginally posted by ZaphodB Quote
But... we're not. Not at all. We were talking about high ISO performance i.e. 'clean-ness' of images at higher sensitivities. In this area, the K10d is (I'm sure someone will disagree but I feel confident saying this) beaten by other cameras most notably Canons, whose 20D for example is older and cheaper than the K10d, not costing twice as much. The K10d is very good value, no one is doubting that, but it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't handle images at high ISOs as well as some other models (and doesn't offer ISO 3200 at all), and the question is whether Pentax plans to focus on this area in their next models.



My apologies, I missed the part where the hypothetical K25d matches the D300 "in every category" presumably including high ISO performance. OK OK so you answered a question with a question and want us to answer your question instead of the original one ... well I would buy the K25D. At the higher price. (By the way, if the K25D comes in 18 months with the same specs the D300 has now, I would expect it to cost a bit less than $1700). But I'd get the more expensive one because better high ISO performance is one of the more important factors to me, like it is to switters... as one might expect in a thread asking whether the new model/s will have better high ISO performance
I'm doing a poor job of expressing myself. Both you and switter have a desire for clean high ISO and that is a legitimate want. As I read the hints that have been thrown out so far I have been trying to read between the lines. It appears Pentax is trying to take a different approach to noise that may take rethinking the whole subject. It seems to me if you can increase the pixel count of the K10D by 4mp and the DR significantly while maintaining or slightly improving the cleanness of an image at ISO 1600 you have a camera that a large segment of the market would go for in a big way. I think you might be able to argue that this type of RAW file could be pushed 1 to 1/2 stops and still remain very clean.

This not only gives them the $1,100-$1,200 model they need but it also helps to identify the personality of the Pentax line. It separates their thinking from the big 2. It also gives them time to redesign the shutter so that it can handle higher fps shooting. The next model in a year or so would be a high ISO, fps body.

Since this is a "what if" I thought I'd go way out in left field.

Ken
12-01-2007, 09:32 AM   #21
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What is truely interesting is the following: if we beleive the various reports from Ben, ROland and others, the two coming cameras are not the only ones coming. There's another one, later, better and higher end.

In that light, the "K20D" will be interesting because it will give us a hint at what would/will be a higher end body. that will be fun I guess
12-01-2007, 10:26 AM   #22
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switters -

I hear where you are coming from, wanting to shoot in low light with fast moving objects. While I think that there's a lot of merrit to what you are wanting, there are other practical ways to get around your problems. I went through this same issue this year, and I looked at all the other systems, and to be honest, while canon had better (faster) AF in low light, the performance increase still wasn't worth it compared to other methods of dealing with this problem. So, here's how I analyzed it:

1. I want to shoot in dim light. The only problem is that usually when the light gets down to 3200 at F1.4, the light is aweful to begin with. No amount of AF and sensitivity is going to make for a good picture with that kind of light (most of the time). So, I added off camera flashes to light the area instead. I now get better, smoother images with better resolution, and I'm in control of the light. It only takes a few minutes to set up the off camera flashes (I use Sunpak 383 $80 flashes and ebay wireless remote triggers), and I never have to move them once set up. They just light up the room like house lamps.

2. For AF in low light, pentax is just down right stupid because they don't put a real AF assist lamp on their bodies. Seriously, it would cost them $.50 per body and would fix 99% of the complaints about low light AF problems. The flash AF assist is complete junk, and by the time the camera focuses using it, you've blinded the people in the picture. Just put a red, blue, IR or even white AF assist lamp that actually works on the camera! Anyway, enough of the rant - you can attach a flash to the camera with AF assist - yes, it's heavy, but the 360 is a little lighter. I don't know if the little flash they released this year has AF assist that's any good. That would be perfect though. Now you won't be able to use the ebay triggers like this unless you use an optical trigger to trigger the wireless triggers - but you get the point. The other option (this is the only I ultimately went with) is to put the split screen focus screen in the camera. I can focus in pretty poor light quite well with it, and it takes care of all the AF problems.

Obviously, this won't work in some situations where flash is not allowed, so if that's your case, you may want to look elsewhere as I don't think the pentax system is ever going to be the best in that regard. If you're really desperate for good low light gear without flash, it's going to be impossible to get the best performance from a system that has only one F1.4 lens. You'd be better with a full frame camera and a 35/1.4, 50/1.2, 85/1.2, 135/2 set of primes.

It's up to you to determine if it's worth getting that gear to capture light at such low levels. For me, it wasn't because, most of the time when I'm shooting in such light, the quality of the light just isn't good anyway. However, in your circumstances, it may be worth it, and that's totally fine too.

Anyway, my 0.02. It's hard to make the call though considering the price of photography gear. :-)
12-01-2007, 11:05 AM   #23
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Now I have to apologise again :D

QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
I'm doing a poor job of expressing myself. Both you and switter have a desire for clean high ISO and that is a legitimate want. As I read the hints that have been thrown out so far I have been trying to read between the lines. It appears Pentax is trying to take a different approach to noise that may take rethinking the whole subject. It seems to me if you can increase the pixel count of the K10D by 4mp and the DR significantly while maintaining or slightly improving the cleanness of an image at ISO 1600 you have a camera that a large segment of the market would go for in a big way. I think you might be able to argue that this type of RAW file could be pushed 1 to 1/2 stops and still remain very clean.

This not only gives them the $1,100-$1,200 model they need but it also helps to identify the personality of the Pentax line. It separates their thinking from the big 2. It also gives them time to redesign the shutter so that it can handle higher fps shooting. The next model in a year or so would be a high ISO, fps body.

Since this is a "what if" I thought I'd go way out in left field.

Ken
Sorry, I've been a bit dumb... I mistook you for someone else and thought you were one of those claiming to be "in the know"... hence me suggesting that you were avoiding the question. I now see you were just proposing a "what if" same as most of us. So sorry if I came across as a bit confrontational.

What you're suggesting is certainly interesting. Because I shoot RAW 99% of the time, I don't necessarily need higher ISOs "in camera", just the ability to "push" the images and still have them remain clean... this would basically be equivalent to what I do with film. One of my complaints in trying the K10d was that IMO images could not really be pushed beyond ISO 1600 clean enough to make up for the lack of ISO 3200 in-camera... so in that sense at least it appeared to be a step back from the K100d... if that were to change in the new model I would be very happy. January (or perhaps more accurately the months following it) will certainly be interesting...

12-01-2007, 12:36 PM   #24
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Just hang in there guys..the new toys will compete very nicely with the rabble rousers out there in the playing field...There will be obvious improvements in many areas' plus some very useful additional toys to boot...

Ben
12-01-2007, 12:40 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
Just hang in there guys..the new toys will compete very nicely with the rabble rousers out there in the playing field...There will be obvious improvements in many areas' plus some very useful additional toys to boot...

Ben
Oh man...you do know how to tease...
12-01-2007, 12:42 PM   #26
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Thanks Ben... I'm sure the new models will be great with "obvious improvements in many areas"... but would you care to drop any clues about whether this (high ISO performance) will be one of those areas?
12-01-2007, 12:46 PM   #27
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Laurels...

QuoteOriginally posted by ZaphodB Quote
But... we're not. Not at all. We were talking about high ISO performance i.e. 'clean-ness' of images at higher sensitivities. In this area, the K10d is (I'm sure someone will disagree but I feel confident saying this) beaten by other cameras most notably Canons, whose 20D for example is older and cheaper than the K10d, not costing twice as much. The K10d is very good value, no one is doubting that, but it doesn't change the fact that it doesn't handle images at high ISOs as well as some other models (and doesn't offer ISO 3200 at all), and the question is whether Pentax plans to focus on this area in their next models.



My apologies, I missed the part where the hypothetical K25d matches the D300 "in every category" presumably including high ISO performance. OK OK so you answered a question with a question and want us to answer your question instead of the original one ... well I would buy the K25D. At the higher price. (By the way, if the K25D comes in 18 months with the same specs the D300 has now, I would expect it to cost a bit less than $1700). But I'd get the more expensive one because better high ISO performance is one of the more important factors to me, like it is to switters... as one might expect in a thread asking whether the new model/s will have better high ISO performance

You are making some rather bold assumptions. What makes you think that the new toys on offer will not compete or even exceed the specs of the Nikon D300 or Canons 40D, etc...Pentax aren't F'ing around nor are they riding on their laurels. But speculation is fun and often very illuminating to say the least.
12-01-2007, 12:50 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZaphodB Quote
Thanks Ben... I'm sure the new models will be great with "obvious improvements in many areas"... but would you care to drop any clues about whether this (high ISO performance) will be one of those areas?
That issue you mentioned has been one of the major considerations of all camera manufacturers...I cannot specify how these issues are being addressed, but am confident that they will be.

Ben
12-01-2007, 12:52 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
You are making some rather bold assumptions. What makes you think that the new toys on offer will not compete or even exceed the specs of the Nikon D300 or Canons 40D, etc...Pentax aren't F'ing around nor are they riding on their laurels. But speculation is fun and often very illuminating to say the least.
Ah but I wasn't making any assumptions, I was merely responding to some hypothetical proposals by regken... the tone of those was rather conservative, not bold at all... surely you are making some very bold claims (the new Pentaxes will be "groundbreaking"?)

QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
That issue you mentioned has been one of the major considerations of all camera manufacturers...I cannot specify how these issues are being addressed, but am confident that they will be.

Ben
Good to know
12-01-2007, 01:04 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by ZaphodB Quote
Ah but I wasn't making any assumptions, I was merely responding to some hypothetical proposals by regken... the tone of those was rather conservative, not bold at all... surely you are making some very bold claims (the new Pentaxes will be "groundbreaking"?)



Good to know
Of course they will be ground breaking. Take your K10D and with all the force you can muster and all your might, smash it on to the ground, preferably not concrete. It will be ground breaking...
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