[Aristophanes]

Unfortunately Pentax don't have their say in this, the sensors are developed by Samsung, Sony, etc. They all spend a lot of R&D to incorporate video features. And of course it would be uncompetitive for Pentax to not take advantage of these features.

To not do video you could use the Kodak CCD sensor Leica's M9 uses.

The 645D has no video. What a coup that would have been (adding another 1,000 grams in battery and cooling fan).

Note a 645D and Leica cost about the same.

[Ubuntu_user]

It would be a mistake to not give the ability to use DA lenses. I'm pretty sure a Pentax FF will use DA lenses with no issue except the needed cropping. Of course the FF camera should be based on the K-3 electronics to be comfortably competitive, not the K-5. But currently I would be perfectly satisfied with a K-5 upgraded with just a FF sensor. For improving CD-AF they need faster sensor read speed (a given), faster CPU (same) and better algorithms. The K-5 is already much faster than the K-7 to the point of being usable for all but moving subjects.

I whole heartedly agree. To me, with the K-5, Pentax really has reached pretty decent AF speed, the main problem is that none of the current Pentax lenses are fast enough.. In other words, if you stuck a lens on the K-5 that was as fast to focus as Nikon's 70-200mm, it would definitely be satisfactory AF speed wise for most of us...

[atlnq9]

most likely next enthusiast camera body from Pentax will be a mirrorless K-mount (APS-C)

Articulating screen

I hope they will do away with an EVF to make the body smaller, and do away with in built flash to make the body smaller still

You realize that if the mirrorless option still uses the K-mount that all you can hope to do is make the camera 0.5" shorter. Everything else is pretty much already packed in as tight as possible as shown by Pentax making some of the smallest bodies... An articulating screen will take up more volume making what you are asking even harder. And if we are talking about a mirrorless camera for enthusiasts like you keep mentioning then it is pretty certain to come with a flash.

An FF mirrorless would be less attractive - since it won't be able to support DA glass.

Would work fine, all the camera has to do is recognize when a DA lens is mounted and make it's own crop. Besides Pentax already has a number of FF lenses. It is not like having a APS-C and FF line of lenses is a jump, and it is not like people buying new lenses can't buy FF to use on APS-C... You act like it is a huge investment for Pentax to re-issue FA lenses. They already have the designs and tooling, a huge step up from developing a new lens. And as you and others mention it comes down to market not whether the DA lenses work and that very few FF lenses are still made...

[drougge]

If Pentax uses the same electronics with a full frame sensor, it may end up as slow/limited as the 5D Mk II. Pentax really needs to move to a new generation of CPU to support a FF sensor - something fast enough to support SDXC UHS-I, be able to take 6-10 fps for at least 2-3 seconds. A really fast and usable Live View (if it is not a mirrorless), semi-pro video controls and support for AVCHD.

I really wish there was a market for FF that wasn't stupidly high resolution. I just want a better viewfinder, not more pixels.

Argh! Someone said AVCHD.

No, no, no! Heaven's no.

Not a barely editable, proprietary video format owned by Sony and Panasonic and hated be every OS coder. No.

H.264 please. Far more versatile if you're going to compress.

But you're still happy with a distribution codec as master? Now, I don't shoot video on my DSLR, but I have done a little video editing, and I'm much happier when the frames are independant (as they currently are on Pentax).

[maxfield_photo]

Would work fine, all the camera has to do is recognize when a DA lens is mounted and make it's own crop. Besides Pentax already has a number of FF lenses. It is not like having a APS-C and FF line of lenses is a jump, and it is not like people buying new lenses can't buy FF to use on APS-C... You act like it is a huge investment for Pentax to re-issue FA lenses. They already have the designs and tooling, a huge step up from developing a new lens. And as you and others mention it comes down to market not whether the DA lenses work and that very few FF lenses are still made...

Lately I've been messing around with sticking DA lenses on my old KX (the film version), and I'm surprised at how much of the frame they actually DO fill. Some fill the entire frame at certain focal lengths, with moderately pronounced vignetting of course, but that's easily corrected with software. Certainly I think most of them would fill an APS-H sized frame, so maybe Pentax could give the user the option of auto lens detection, or the ability to manually choose from three different crop factors. This could also help to keep the file size down if you don't need the extra FoV.

[Warpig]

I really wish there was a market for FF that wasn't stupidly high resolution. I just want a better viewfinder, not more pixels.


But you're still happy with a distribution codec as master? Now, I don't shoot video on my DSLR, but I have done a little video editing, and I'm much happier when the frames are independant (as they currently are on Pentax).

Yes and yes.
About the viewfinder, I only want a bigger mirror, maybe not a bigger sensor, just the mirror so the image on the finder is bigger (and with a split screen focus screen with microprism, as in the manual focus era cameras... happy)

And about the the video, I assume all the people talking about video capabilities on the SLRs is in an amateur way. I've work with folks of TV stations on documentaries for broadcast, and they always work with pro videocameras. Supercompressed video formats are anoying to work with, and I know what I'm talking about, as I work in CGI and teach 3D modeling and animation for Industrial Design at one of the universities in my city. I've played with a friend's K-x, and the video is just fine, for amateur video.

Anyway, full frame, half frame, APS-C, H, T, E, W, whatever, if that camera brings me cold beer, or, have a big OPTICAL viewfinder, I would buy that without thinking.







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[Christine Tham]

Argh! Someone said AVCHD.

No, no, no! Heaven's no.

Not a barely editable, proprietary video format owned by Sony and Panasonic and hated be every OS coder. No.

H.264 please. Far more versatile if you're going to compress.

Ahem...

Most implementations of AVCHD is H.264 in an .m2ts container. You can edit the .m2ts files. AVCHD is just a specification for the file/directory structure and allowable codecs - you also encode MPEG2 and M-JPEG into AVCHD format.

I actually convert my TV recordings into AVCHD format so they can play on my Bluray player (AVCHD is a subset of Bluray spec).

As for why AVCHD in cameras - it allows for continuous video recordings longer than 20 minutes or so.

[Christine Tham]

But you're still happy with a distribution codec as master? Now, I don't shoot video on my DSLR, but I have done a little video editing, and I'm much happier when the frames are independant (as they currently are on Pentax).

Yes, H.264 was originally targeted as a distribution codec rather than an editing codec, but the reason it is used in camcorders is because having I and P frames increase the quality as only differences between frames need to be encoded, not full frames. Yes, it makes editing slightly harder, but frames are still individually extractable. Any decent video editor will do a good job, and most of the good ones will offload the processing to the GPU.

[gazonk]

No enthusiast market for APSC SLR in 2012.

I think that's a too strong statement - haven't e.g. Canon enthusiasts been pretty divided between the 5d mk II and the 7d? And while FF may make a big leap forward again with new sensors next year, there's still the problem of bulky, expensive and sometimes not-quite so good lenses for FF compared to APS-C (for instance: I don't really know Canon well, but isn't the 17-55/2.8 a slightly better lens than the 24-70/2.8? And the latter is MUCH bulkier (950 g vs. 640 g), and doesn't have IS).

[TaoMaas]

And about the the video, I assume all the people talking about video capabilities on the SLRs is in an amateur way. I've work with folks of TV stations on documentaries for broadcast, and they always work with pro videocameras.

It's not just amateurs who are using the video capabilities in DSLRs these days. I'm a videographer and you're right that tv stations are still using traditional video cameras. But I saw a high-end commercial being shot the other day with a Canon 5D. Also, the other shooter that I work with got a text from one of his buddies who owns a video production house. It included a pic of this guy's latest rig. It was a DSLR that was covered in extra gear...shoulder mount, audio box, external LCD monitor. Someone mentioned earlier that they're seeing a lot of commercials that seem to have either been shot on a DSLR or with a RED camera. The fact that a DSLR can come that close to the look of a RED at a fraction of the cost ought to tell us why they're becoming so popular for video production.

[falconeye]

The text I linked to may be regarded as contradicting itself because it both

1. quotes Paul Genge from Sony UK that a decision is still pending, but also
2. clearly states

   Not a single one of those [new fullframe cameras in 2012] will have a classic DSLR design (no classic mirror, no prisma)

Thanks for bringing this up again.

Yes, Paul from Sony says less than Andrea from sonyalpharumors. Andrea marks his/her statement (2 or 3 FF SLTs in 2012) as SR5 (rumor from many of external and internal sources (70-90% chance the rumor will become real)).

So, there is a 20% chance Andrea is wrong and why so many FF SLTs if all of them are SLT?

But you're right. It makes a Sony FF SLR unlikely, at least one FF SLT almost certain (A99).

Maybe, its two SLTs if its two, and two SLTs + one SLR if its three? With the exact number of models not decided yet?


What strikes me is this statement by Andrea:

What I can also say is that my trusted sources are sure the new FF cameras will shake the world. And I am sure they mean it very honestly!

With the new 36MP FF Exmor chip appearing in 2012 all over the place (A99, D4, ...), I am sure the entire FF vs. APSC discussion will emerge all over again.

[Emacs]

I think that's a too strong statement - haven't e.g. Canon enthusiasts been pretty divided between the 5d mk II and the 7d? And while FF may make a big leap forward again with new sensors next year, there's still the problem of bulky, expensive and sometimes not-quite so good lenses for FF compared to APS-C (for instance: I don't really know Canon well, but isn't the 17-55/2.8 a slightly better lens than the 24-70/2.8? And the latter is MUCH bulkier (950 g vs. 640 g), and doesn't have IS).

The 24-70 on FF gives better IQ than 17-55 on canon crop of course.

[Christine Tham]

You realize that if the mirrorless option still uses the K-mount that all you can hope to do is make the camera 0.5" shorter. Everything else is pretty much already packed in as tight as possible as shown by Pentax making some of the smallest bodies... An articulating screen will take up more volume making what you are asking even harder. And if we are talking about a mirrorless camera for enthusiasts like you keep mentioning then it is pretty certain to come with a flash.


Would work fine, all the camera has to do is recognize when a DA lens is mounted and make it's own crop.

Actually, as Panasonic demonstrated with the G3 and GF3, removing EVF and articulating screen can dramatically shrink the size of a camera. And Sony proved that it is possible to make fairly thin camera with articulating screen. Sony is also pretty good at proving how small an APC-C body is without EVF and flash.

The main issue Pentax has is the K mount limitation with regards to sensor distance from mount, but again I think there may be a few creative options that Pentax can explore.

Let's wait for the next Pentax model rather than arguing about what is or is not possible.

However, I would disagree that auto cropping for DA lenses on an FF camera is "working fine" - this would be an extremely suboptimal solution for someone with an FF camera and majority DA lenses.

As for restarting production on FA lenses - yes, but ... not that easy if you want to add SDM to them - will probably require a significant redesign.

[Christine Tham]

.
I think Ricoh will invest sooner rather than later. "Later" is always the safe choice, "later" provides a nice CYA smokescreen for execs who just don't want to be fired, and want to just hang on...

This is assuming that Ricoh/Pentax even *wants* to make an FF camera, which I find highly doubtful.

The latest article from Bloomberg:
Canon Hanging on to Mirrors Means Opportunity for Sony, Panasonic Cameras - Bloomberg

To quote:

As a result, Canon and Nikon’s combined share of the Japanese market has fallen by 35 percent, while Sony’s share has doubled, according to estimates at research firm BCN Inc.

The best way for Pentax to increase market share is to capture a new market, which is why they released the Q. Releasing an FF DSLR will make them compete in the same market as two makers who are rapidly losing market share.

[Rondec]

This is assuming that Ricoh/Pentax even *wants* to make an FF camera, which I find highly doubtful.

The latest article from Bloomberg:
Canon Hanging on to Mirrors Means Opportunity for Sony, Panasonic Cameras - Bloomberg

To quote:


The best way for Pentax to increase market share is to capture a new market, which is why they released the Q. Releasing an FF DSLR will make them compete in the same market as two makers who are rapidly losing market share.

I think there is no doubt that they plan to release a FF SLR eventually, the question is more when. Eventually (probably soon) we will be as far as APS-C sensors can take us and then the improvements will have to come from larger sensors. The biggest thing is that Pentax should not under-spec a full frame release. The idea that they could release a camera with 3 fps and flash sync speed of 1/180 second and the same auto focus module that is in the K5 might satisfy Pentaxians craving a larger sensor, but I really think it would be doomed to failure. The market expects more and will beat down anything that isn't more and not named "Leica."