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10-10-2011, 05:16 PM   #481
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I have not seen a significant difference in IQ until you hit higher ISO.

The A99 might change that. We will have to see. The A77 is going to have a strong following. The A77 will attract a lot of "serious enthusiasts".

So it will only attract 80% of the market?

There are some real advantages to SLT. Is the technology there yet? NO, but it is still a new technology. Those Zeiss lenses are not too shabby either.

The A77 is more camera than 90% of the buyers are going to need and more capable than many of the professional cameras just of a few years ago. The EVF technology is not as good as the top of the line OVFs, but it is better than a lot of APS-C OVFs and especially the lower end penta-mirror OVFs.

The "Peaking" feature that Sony has implemented is really good feature that I hope to see others copy. Makes MF much, much faster than trying to look through a small APS-C OVF.
Absolutely agree on the peaking. The GXR has it but's no where near as good as Sony's.

10-10-2011, 08:51 PM   #482
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I have not seen a significant difference in IQ until you hit higher ISO.

The A99 might change that. We will have to see. The A77 is going to have a strong following. The A77 will attract a lot of "serious enthusiasts".

So it will only attract 80% of the market?

There are some real advantages to SLT. Is the technology there yet? NO, but it is still a new technology. Those Zeiss lenses are not too shabby either.

The A77 is more camera than 90% of the buyers are going to need and more capable than many of the professional cameras just of a few years ago. The EVF technology is not as good as the top of the line OVFs, but it is better than a lot of APS-C OVFs and especially the lower end penta-mirror OVFs.

The "Peaking" feature that Sony has implemented is really good feature that I hope to see others copy. Makes MF much, much faster than trying to look through a small APS-C OVF.

Yes, exactly what I mean for image quality. From ISO 1600 its obvious. If shooting even with flash and there is a need to retain the ambient, ISO800, 1600, 3200 is still relevant.
'A77' will attract serious enthusiasts for sure, but more because they have already bought into Sony or are swayed by the Sony branding. If one is to research properly, why pay the same and use something that will be poorer image quality at ISO1600 and above.
For studio and portraits where there is no need for a more versatile range of ISO, I can see it being well received (like the A900, A850 was before it).

Any camera at this moment, be it Canon 600D, Nikon D3100, etc are well able to meet the needs of 90% of buyers. Problem is that everyone pixel peeps and look over the shoulders to the next guy holding the newer 'better' camera

OVF is still not at a point where its even near OVF. I have a G3 with a 60hz, 1.44MP EVF that is considered rather good. Its still quite far from a 'real' image on the OVF. Resolution is not near OVF neither is refresh rate high enough to keep up with movement. If I'd take a shot as to what is enough to make EVF on par with OVF, it would be twice the resolution (ie. A77 is about there) and around 180Hz (ie. keep up with human motion). Dynamic range needs to be improved as well.
It does of course have the benefit of preview and menu via EVF, as well as the most important aspect to me which is better MF aids and accuracy.
Win some, lose some for now.

While the 'peaking' function is nice. I realized that it still has limitations :
1. It brings the user to a 'ball park' of focus and is not tack sharp. In other words, its almost the same as relying on focus indication on a Kr, K7, K5 for example.
2. Accuracy and speed is still dependent on the judgement and decisiveness of the user. So the display (ie. red outline) may have peaked, but if the user is indecisive, he/she will easily go over that peak, and will have to turn focus back accordingly. This is not too different from viewing via a zoomed in or a window in window screen.
Not saying that its not convenient to use or no good, but its just not that rosy a picture as what one thinks when viewing the 'peaking mode' demos on Youtube.
10-11-2011, 12:39 PM   #483
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They told sony peaking is much better than one of panasonic ;-)
10-11-2011, 01:39 PM   #484
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To be honest I'm thinking that we have to wait until 2013 for this FF.

10-11-2011, 03:04 PM   #485
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
To be honest I'm thinking that we have to wait until 2013 for this FF.
You are probably right (If we see one at all), but with all the the technology that is already in place between the 645D and the K-5 it would not take a whole lot for Pentax to produce a FF camera. Morphing the K-5 into a larger body to accept the larger sensor and mirror would not be a huge challenge. Working with the SR to move a larger sensor. Two image processors and a bigger battery.

Update the lens designs for the FA lenses to make the D-FA*.
10-11-2011, 03:38 PM   #486
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
To be honest I'm thinking that we have to wait until 2013 for this FF.
That was my prediction - possibly announced at Photokina 2012, released in 2013.
10-11-2011, 04:20 PM   #487
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
To be honest I'm thinking that we have to wait until 2013 for this FF.
QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
That was my prediction - possibly announced at Photokina 2012, released in 2013.
Well, I guess that just might be a good thing it will allow us to save up our spare change so that when the time comes, we'll all be able to afford one (Pentax will then have trouble keeping up with production). i.e., if we could knock out LBA between now and then.
10-11-2011, 05:39 PM   #488
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This time last year I would have said there is a ZERO chance that Pentax produces a FF. But with Ricoh I think there is a possibility. It might not be a big possibility, but it is at least a possibility. I think Pentax needs to follow Sony and put one on the market so that they offer a complete line up. Pentax's version of an A900 would be very attractive. Pentax has a lot of work to do on the lens side of the business.

10-11-2011, 05:43 PM   #489
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Hey Sperdynamite are you still reading the thread you started. See what you have done. You pulled the pin and all the FF diehards who are spilling their guts again. 33 mostly mindless pages of it. I feel sorry that your good article has been wasted on these chaps. I am thinking only a small percentage would have read your article, just say FF and they are away.

Last edited by Bob from Aus; 10-11-2011 at 05:49 PM.
10-12-2011, 04:16 AM   #490
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I for one read Sperdynamite's initial post. Unfortunately thing's seem to have got a bit bogged down with the merits (or lack thereof?) of SLT.

A certain percentage of DSLR users will always want FF (myself included). My argument is that crop sensors were only supposed to be an interim standard as making FF sensors was originally
very costly. Those sensors are no longer anywhere near as costly, but in the meantime APS-C has become entrenched as a de facto standard.

It makes you wonder that if APS film had arrived a little earlier, would it have had a bigger effect on 35mm SLR sales? If I remember, APS SLR sales were pretty abysmal.
10-12-2011, 05:12 AM   #491
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I would bet Ricoh/Pentax will do what they think will make the most money for them. I'm not interested in a Full Frame camera having tried the Canon a few times. That is a really big/heavy camera even by 35mm film camera standards. I'm in the I prefer smaller cameras cohort. That said if i photography wasn't just a fun hobby for me, I might feel differently about it.

If I was guessing I would say some type of mirrorless system based on APS-C is more likely. It just seems to be the bigger trend in digital cameras. I am very curious about the upcoming Fuji system. I have been extremely pleased with the X100.
10-12-2011, 06:36 AM   #492
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bob from Aus Quote
Hey Sperdynamite are you still reading the thread you started. See what you have done. You pulled the pin and all the FF diehards who are spilling their guts again. 33 mostly mindless pages of it. I feel sorry that your good article has been wasted on these chaps. I am thinking only a small percentage would have read your article, just say FF and they are away.

Oh man that thread went out of control, I know. I just wanted to make a point similar to what Steve Jobs once said about Windows. Pentax doesn't need to do what Canikon is doing, they just need to do a really good job, and FF is part of that, but not the only part. I still am hoping for a single full frame camera, but I'm not going to rattle back and forth about specs it should have. Since I work professionally I really only worry about what lenses I can use and how much they cost. Which I why I LOVE the idea of a hybrid APS-C/FF system. Pentax is in a position to develop one.

However! I am leaving for Costa Rica on Friday and I am bringin my K-5, my 15, 31, and 70mm Ltd's, and my X100. It all fits in one small Domke satchel and that, I think, is amazing.
10-12-2011, 10:10 AM   #493
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QuoteOriginally posted by pinholecam Quote
While the 'peaking' function is nice. I realized that it still has limitations :
1. It brings the user to a 'ball park' of focus and is not tack sharp. In other words, its almost the same as relying on focus indication on a Kr, K7, K5 for example.
2. Accuracy and speed is still dependent on the judgement and decisiveness of the user. So the display (ie. red outline) may have peaked, but if the user is indecisive, he/she will easily go over that peak, and will have to turn focus back accordingly. This is not too different from viewing via a zoomed in or a window in window screen.
Not saying that its not convenient to use or no good, but its just not that rosy a picture as what one thinks when viewing the 'peaking mode' demos on Youtube.
The most important advantage of peaking is similar to that of the split prism. You can see at what rate you are approaching the optimal focus plane. Your brain continuously reads the rate at which the focus plane is moving and you can predict how far to turn it much easier, as opposed to a green hex popping up, making it faster in real applications. A zoomed in window is perhaps better than a green hex, but still a bit hard to gauge compared to something linear like lining up two halves or moving a bright pink area across the image.

Of course, it depends a lot on the implementation. It could highlight too much or too little, or everything in low light or with a wide angle lens. I'd love to see this in an EVF (not a rear LCD) in the future, making it easier to work with those old MF lenses.

On the other hand, on-sensor phase detect would be even better.
10-12-2011, 05:23 PM   #494
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People seem to be judging the EVF and SLT technology on where they are today and calling it a failure. The EVF and SLT technology are both in the very early stages (I owned an EOS RT, I know Canon had it years ago). The future is very bright for both of these technologies and their existence will be a benefit for everyone. Pentax will be pressured to improve its OVF to stay ahead and add feature to compete. I think they are great technologies that will increase competition and increase the number of options available to everyone.

There are a lot of advantages to EVF for certain types of photography. Mechanical mirrors and shutters are probably not the future. A professional EVIL system is going to be very interesting. The new AF in the EP-3 is faster than any PDAF Pentax has. Fuji's new "premium" EVIL could be a very strong competitor if they take the strengths of the X100 and continue to improve.
10-12-2011, 10:25 PM   #495
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
People seem to be judging the EVF and SLT technology on where they are today and calling it a failure.
QuoteQuote:
The new AF in the EP-3 is faster than any PDAF Pentax has.
So what's the point of SLT in the long run when AF can be done fast with cdaf or on-sensor pdaf?

I totally agree that "we ain't seen nothing yet" of EVF technology, but I can't help seeing SLT as a very temporary solution that has almost no advantages and a few clear disadvantages.
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