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09-04-2011, 01:49 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
You want me to explain why a completely hypothetical product would be more successful than another completely hypothetical product?
At least, you said about «better idea». So, I wonder why yet another tiny-matrix crop is better than FF?

09-04-2011, 01:56 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
I can get cheaper prices than these, but even if I manage to get them at wholesale price they are still a significant investment. But as I said before, you have to be prepared to pay for quality.

Pentax doesn't have glass in this sort of category or quality. And if you have ever used these lenses before, then you'll realise the focusing is a dream - it's almost as if the camera can read the mind and focuses ahead - it's that magical. I'm not saying the K-5 is bad, but it's in a completely different (lower) league.
I wouldn't go so far as calling Canon focusing magical, just a few weeks ago a friend of mine was having trouble focusing with his 5D MKII and 24-105mm f/4 IS USM L glass. You're mixing AF sensors with lens motors - Pentax has fairly good AF but slow lens motors (or none if you count all the non * lenses). If I could choose I'd have Nikon AF and Canon lenses for a nice Pentax price, there I've said it.
With Pentax you get what you pay for and the same goes for Canon/Nikon/Sony. But the funny thing is you can shoot and get good results with all systems - it all depends on what you're shooting. Are you willing to give much more money for so little effect - that is up to you. Pentax is good enough for a lot of people.

QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
If Pentax releases a full frame camera with the same AF as the K-5, with just a handful of still in production FA lenses, the market for this camera will extremely limited.
Would you mind elaborating on this? Do you need anything more than 31, 43, 50, 77, 100, ... maybe a wider lens would be nice.

QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
And it is counter to the current Pentax brand positioning - as a quirky camera company who makes colourful K-rs (with Rilakkuma and Kore ja nai Robot designs) and interesting small cameras like the Q. A Pentax wannabe 5D or D700? Meh.
All this from a person who puts a Hello Kitty sticker on her camera.

QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
Funnily enough, a mirrorless full frame that accepts K-mount? That may just be weird enough to get a few sales. However, a better idea will be a mirrorless APS-C that accepts DA glass - I will buy that if Pentax releases it tomorrow.
You do realize that a mirrorless camera has a different distance from the sensor to the back of the lens so you'd have to make an extension tube for all existing lenses to focus properly.


I think Pentax knows what it's doing.

Last edited by fejker; 09-04-2011 at 02:04 PM.
09-04-2011, 02:00 PM   #63
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As far as comments on improvments in the auto focus of the K-5, I'll say spend a week with the 5D Mark II. It's autofocus makes the K-5 look like a racecar. The Nikon D700 had a better focusing system but it wasn't night and day. And in terms of a truely better auto focus system The D3S is arguably better but I don't think anyone is saying Pentax should make a $5K+ sports photographer's camera that will satisfy the kind of people who want to spend 20 grand on a kit. Those people absolutely SHOULD buy a Nikon D3S. No argument there.

I wish the AF tracking was usable on the K-5, other than that it's good enough, and fast enough.
09-04-2011, 02:40 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by Sperdynamite Quote
As far as comments on improvments in the auto focus of the K-5, I'll say spend a week with the 5D Mark II. It's autofocus makes the K-5 look like a racecar. The Nikon D700 had a better focusing system but it wasn't night and day. And in terms of a truely better auto focus system The D3S is arguably better but I don't think anyone is saying Pentax should make a $5K+ sports photographer's camera that will satisfy the kind of people who want to spend 20 grand on a kit. Those people absolutely SHOULD buy a Nikon D3S. No argument there.

I wish the AF tracking was usable on the K-5, other than that it's good enough, and fast enough.
I would be more interested in have more AF points. Smaller and spread out a little better. Even if just the center AF point was smaller that would be a plus.

09-04-2011, 02:52 PM   #65
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QuoteQuote:
You do realize that a mirrorless camera has a different distance from the sensor to the back of the lens so you'd have to make an extension tube for all existing lenses to focus properly.
K-mount to m4/3rds adapters are only about $25 so there is no problem. If you want a problem try using K-mount lenses on a regular FF DSLR like the 5D.
09-04-2011, 03:49 PM   #66
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The m4/3 is a smaller sensor so there is no problem. We‘re talking about using lenses designed for aps-c to be used on an aps-c with a smaller register distance, there's a problem.
09-04-2011, 04:19 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by fejker Quote
The m4/3 is a smaller sensor so there is no problem. We‘re talking about using lenses designed for aps-c to be used on an aps-c with a smaller register distance, there's a problem.
What did I miss from your comment? I use k-mount lenses several times a week on m4/3 bodies and that is no different than using them on a canon ef regardless if it is a ff canon or aps-c Canon. There may be an issue with the mirror on some ff canon bodies but not registration with the appropriate adapter.

Last edited by Blue; 09-04-2011 at 05:28 PM.
09-04-2011, 04:37 PM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
Actually, they are even more expensive here in Australia. For example, the EF 200mm f2 L II that I mentioned is A$7000, the 300mm f2.8 L II is around $8000. And they used to be a LOT more expensive before the A$ appreciated.

I can get cheaper prices than these, but even if I manage to get them at wholesale price they are still a significant investment. But as I said before, you have to be prepared to pay for quality.

Spoken like a true Canon fangirl.

QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
Pentax doesn't have glass in this sort of category or quality. And if you have ever used these lenses before, then you'll realise the focusing is a dream - it's almost as if the camera can read the mind and focuses ahead - it's that magical. I'm not saying the K-5 is bad, but it's in a completely different (lower) league.
That comment makes you sound trollish and canon fangirlish. (just pay back for the earlier comment). The K-5 is giving Nikon's D7000 fits on the market. The Canon D60 is between it and the K-r and the 7d Mark II is priced itself well above the K-5 and D7000.

All good long glass is in the automobile price range including the discontinued FA* 600/4 and FA* 250-600/5.6. However, you are implying that Pentax doesn't make some good glass and isn't capable of it. Furthermore, that doesn't really address af anyway. Granted Pentax is going to have to address the sdm boondoggle. However, it isn't like they have to come up with a 600/4 or 250-600/5.6 with SDM and WR from scratch. They don't have to match Canon or Nikon lens for lens. However, they have had enough optical designs the past 10 to 15 years to get a line up.

QuoteOriginally posted by Christine Tham Quote
If Pentax releases a full frame camera with the same AF as the K-5, with just a handful of still in production FA lenses, the market for this camera will extremely limited. And it is counter to the current Pentax brand positioning - as a quirky camera company who makes colourful K-rs (with Rilakkuma and Kore ja nai Robot designs) and interesting small cameras like the Q. A Pentax wannabe 5D or D700? Meh.

Funnily enough, a mirrorless full frame that accepts K-mount? That may just be weird enough to get a few sales. However, a better idea will be a mirrorless APS-C that accepts DA glass - I will buy that if Pentax releases it tomorrow.

This sounds like you want Pentax off on some dead end dirt road to Darwin. You claim that Pentax is in a lower league and yet you say they shouldn't even try to build a full frame dSLR. However, Pentax really should do it for legitimacy.

09-04-2011, 04:59 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by fejker Quote
The m4/3 is a smaller sensor so there is no problem. We‘re talking about using lenses designed for aps-c to be used on an aps-c with a smaller register distance, there's a problem.
Explain exactly what is the problem ? There would be no problem using Pentax K-mount lenses on mirrorless FF cameras but there would on FF DSLRs.

Here is what you have to do to get a K-mount lens to work on a FF Canon 5D:
09-04-2011, 06:24 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
Explain why yet another APS-C mirroless would be more successful than FF, which is not presented on market yet?
Easy. They're already selling well and are the talk of the town.

That's exactly why you enter a market. It's cheaper to follow someone else's donkey and far riskier to be the lead donkey.

FF mirrorless from Pentax will not happen until others make it so. There are no lenses and every DA and Ltd becomes a MF lens on one, making a lot of recent lens investors (and that's what they are) angry.

There is absolutely no way that MF will drive sales. AF all the way or the market is dead for you.

But the DSLR is not going away. Sales say not. Sony's hedging, and Canikon are hesitating to throw everything in on mirrorless.

The reason likely is because you need a completely different lens array and have to support FF DSLR:

FF mirrorless
APS-C DSLR
APS-C mirrorless
and for Pentax...the Q

If Pentax moves its price points to FF mirrorless, it needs lots of lenses it currently does not make. It probably cannot even make enough for FF DSLR.

Pentax is faced with a choice of dividing its sub-5% market share amongst all these options. Gaining market share is unlikely unless it can make its own sensors cheaper than the other guy, or Ricoh wants to lose enormous buckets of cash competing on price.
09-04-2011, 06:27 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
The K-5 is giving Nikon's D7000 fits on the market
Nonsense. The D7000 is a top-seller because it has Nikkor glass. Pentax's market share has not budged in the year since the K-5 came out. Held its own, but taken nothing from the other guys.
09-04-2011, 07:17 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Nonsense. The D7000 is a top-seller because it has Nikkor glass. Pentax's market share has not budged in the year since the K-5 came out. Held its own, but taken nothing from the other guys.
Actually, go back and look at my statement again and you should understand my statement is not nonsense. Look up the definition of "fits." I didn't say Pentax had sold more units. Furthermore, the Nikkor glass is the reason Nikon sells any of their top cameras, duh.

Edit: one of the areas the K-5 is giving it fits is review etc.

Barry's General Information Emporium - Journal - Pentax K-5 Pips the NikonD7000


The d7000 edged out the k-5 by snapshot.com with an overall score of 100 vs 97.

Nikon D7000 vs Pentax K-5


DxOmark: Nikon D7000 Fails to Dethrone Pentax K-5

The Online Photographer: DxOmark: Nikon D7000 Fails to Dethrone Pentax K-5

Last edited by Blue; 09-04-2011 at 07:28 PM.
09-04-2011, 09:09 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
However, you are implying that Pentax doesn't make some good glass and isn't capable of it.
Exactly. Every time I talk with users of other systems they mention Pentax glass before anything else. It's either just a misconception or Pentax glass is seen as high quality and desirable. I think DA and FA Limited primes as a defining feature of Pentax that most people at least know about.

The DA* line is just a bit too "me too" to be a defining feature of our tools. Although I have to say my DA* 300mm is one of the most solid lenses I've ever held (It's all metal unlike other DA* lenses). That's why I think the D-FA WR line would be a great one to develop. It has the best features of the Limited and DA* lines.


QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Granted Pentax is going to have to address the sdm boondoggle.
Interesting info: Replacement motors, at least for the 50-135, have a different part number now. I know a camera dealer who acquired a used one and had to replace the motor before putting it up for sale. He noticed the discrepancy from the repair company and questioned them about the part number. They said it was the sanctioned motor to use. He also mentioned the fixed lens does AF faster than his personal copy of the 50-135 that he has had for years (no motor issues with that lens though).
09-04-2011, 10:08 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Easy. They're already selling well and are the talk of the town.

That's exactly why you enter a market. It's cheaper to follow someone else's donkey and far riskier to be the lead donkey.
I'm sorry, but it's one big BLAH-BLAH-BLAH.
The mirrorless market is busy alread by m4/3 and APS-C players. Pentax can fit it, but it will likely to be other %4 of the whole market.
09-04-2011, 10:21 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote

FF mirrorless from Pentax will not happen until others make it so. There are no lenses and every DA and Ltd becomes a MF lens on one, making a lot of recent lens investors (and that's what they are) angry.

...

There is absolutely no way that MF will drive sales. AF all the way or the market is dead for you.

...

The reason likely is because you need a completely different lens array and have to support FF DSLR:

...

If Pentax moves its price points to FF mirrorless, it needs lots of lenses it currently does not make. It probably cannot even make enough for FF DSLR.
there is no Pentax (even the sale of certain business from Hoya to Ricoh is not formally completed yet) and Ricoh is perfectly fine to make a camera w/ no lenses - see GXR M module... so new owner might as well do a FF mirrorless w/o lenses... albeit it might not be called Pentax... it is time to stop using Pentax, Pentax, Pentax... get used to Ricoh.
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