Some Thoughts Pentax and Full Frame

atlnq9 · 09-05-2011, 10:51 AM

In my opinion it depends on what Ricoh wants to do with Pentax. Do they want to take on the top two, or do they want to keep introducing very well priced prosumer cameras that attract buyers who fully evaluate cameras before they buy?

If they introduce FF it needs to be situated to attract entering pros and high level prosumers. A good FF lens base needs to come out at the same time, which is no big feat for Pentax. Bring out D-FA* lenses add maybe one or two new lenses. They aren't going to introduce a 35mm FF that starts switching pros that are highly invested in glass. Introduce a new updated FF 2yrs later that still offers the cheapest FF with just enough features to lock in more entering users. They need to build a system to lock new pros in let them become invested in Pentax's top glass and then wham the K1** comes out just when these users need it. You won't see me switching because of just the small amount of glass I have, the Canikon versions will break me. I can't justify spending 3 times as much to get a 300 2.8 with a canon sticker.

That seems to be the philosophy with the 645D. The 645D is the cheapest entry level MF. Offers all the features needed, in fact beats in many regards since it was easy to transfer K5-645D knowledge back and forth. The 25mm from reviews is a awesome hit of a lens, fits FF medium format. Same with the 55mm. There is plenty of 645 glass availible so Pentax is only bringing out what it knows will sell. If the supply of 645 glass used drops then I am sure Pentax will reissue. Pentax has already claimed to be bringing out a couple new 645 lenses in the future. They are preparing and setting up for a 645D* with full frame in the future. I don't see a cheaper 645D coming out though. Because of this I might just buy into the 645D, no matter what I do 35mm will never catch it on a IQ bases. I don't need the AF of what 35mm offers. This camera won't be out done for many years on a quality/value standpoint, one great investment. Yeah Pentax may come out with the 645D II or FF and all my glass would be ready for it!

Last edited by atlnq9; 09-05-2011 at 10:57 AM.

gazonk · 09-05-2011, 11:55 AM

Originally posted by atlnq9

There is plenty of 645 glass availible so Pentax is only bringing out what it knows will sell. If the supply of 645 glass used drops then I am sure Pentax will reissue. Pentax has already claimed to be bringing out a couple new 645 lenses in the future.

Most shops carrying the 645D seems to have a lot of the old lenses available - are these from previous production runs or did they produce new batches of them?

Christine Tham · 09-05-2011, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by Rondec

It has been touched on already in this thread, but prior to thinking about releasing a full frame camera, Pentax needs a much better support system. My experience is that turn around time on fixing a lens is 2 to 3 weeks. There are only two places in the United States that rent lenses for Pentax. Pentax cameras aren't even in stores. I can walk into my local Walmart and see an entry level Nikon, but not a Pentax. In such a situation, it is amazing that Pentax has any market share at all. Some of those things would need to change prior to launching such a camera.

Basically, there will always be attrition as you move up in price range. The K5 probably sells ten percent of the number of kx sales, just because it is more expensive. Move up to a 3000 dollar full frame and the number of sales will be ten percent of K5 sales. Currently that would be a pretty small number. Build the bottom end somehow and you could feed a full frame camera. You just need to have a good foundation before you build the house.

Agree completely. Despite the 645D being a groundbreaking MF digital, I don't see many people buying it. Even the markets for Canon and Nikon full frames are extremely small - miniscule compared to the overall camera market.

Actually, people who want Pentax to make a full frame camera should wish that Pentax sell a gazillion Qs to Pretty Young Things in China, and that Ricoh help Pentax revitalise their dealer network.

If Pentax becomes successful with their Q strategy, that will then create an incentive for them to build a full frame camera to allow their customer base to trade up to a "real" camera for shallow DOF etc. Then they can resurrect their FA glasses and resell them.

So who knows we may yet see a pink Hello Kitty Pentax full frame in the future. Don't worry, I'm sure they will make a Gundam or Evangelion edition as well for the boys.

atlnq9 · 09-05-2011, 01:34 PM

Originally posted by gazonk

Most shops carrying the 645D seems to have a lot of the old lenses available - are these from previous production runs or did they produce new batches of them?

Forgive us going off topic here. The shop I have been to just had used glass, there is a lot available at reasonable prices. However, Pentax Canada claims the AF lenses are still in production. They must just be a special order item which I can't see any need doing unless they still special order the 600 5.6. I would say they still have lots of new old stock parts they can throw together just like there were several FA* lenses that could still be special ordered until a few years back.

Pentax 645D Interview

Last edited by atlnq9; 09-05-2011 at 03:18 PM.

deejjjaaaa · 09-05-2011, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Blue

Well, they just kicked canon's ass off my campus.

you mean Canon's dSLR ? because as I said their other business did not help their photo gear sales at all

Originally posted by Blue

Besides, that system is just now getting traction and just started being sold by BH and Adorama. Look how long it has taken the m4/3 system to start getting traction as a system.

sales by BH & Adorama started immediately

upon release of the first m43 body by Panasonic... so it did not take anytime at all... so if it is your criteria then m43 hit the ground running.

deejjjaaaa · 09-05-2011, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Blue

the name that taught Nikon and Canon what an SLR was supposed to look like and how it should work.

and as any good teacher it was left in the dust (marketshare) by capable pupils

Zygonyx · 09-05-2011, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by gazonk

Most shops carrying the 645D seems to have a lot of the old lenses available - are these from previous production runs or did they produce new batches of them?

As said somewhere else on this forum, Pentax resumed all FA line production about 2 years ago. The product line is on sale as new on several official sites.

fejker · 09-05-2011, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by Blue

Actually, you are flat wrong. There is no problem with k-mount lenses covering the 4/3 sensor with registration distance adjusted for by the adapter. Also, there is no problem with full frame K-mount lenses used on canon EF full frame bodies the same way are any k-mount lenses on aps-c canon bodies via adapter.

I don't think we understand each other very well. You're talking about using K-mount lenses on NORMAL FF bodies and m4/3 systems ... that is all well and works fine, what I was replying to was using the same lenses on a mirrorless FF. The post I replied to was suggesting that Pentax should make a mirrorless FF camera and use the existing lenses and that would just not work without an extension tube because the lenses simply would not cover the whole sensor.

I hope you understand now that I'm not saying K-mount lenses don't work on FF but they wouldn't work on a mirrorless FF (at least not without using an extension that would not go well with the "make the camera smaller" moto).

stanleyk · 09-05-2011, 04:03 PM

Valuable advice:

The Visual Science Lab / Kirk Tuck: Ten ways to win an argument on a forum.

**Fontan** · 09-05-2011, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by Christine Tham

Agree completely. Despite the 645D being a groundbreaking MF digital, I don't see many people buying it. Even the markets for Canon and Nikon full frames are extremely small - miniscule compared to the overall camera market.

Actually, people who want Pentax to make a full frame camera should wish that Pentax sell a gazillion Qs to Pretty Young Things in China, and that Ricoh help Pentax revitalise their dealer network.

If Pentax becomes successful with their Q strategy, that will then create an incentive for them to build a full frame camera to allow their customer base to trade up to a "real" camera for shallow DOF etc. Then they can resurrect their FA glasses and resell them.

So who knows we may yet see a pink Hello Kitty Pentax full frame in the future. Don't worry, I'm sure they will make a Gundam or Evangelion edition as well for the boys.

How do you define "many?" Just wondering. Is, say, 10,000 units many??

Blue · 09-05-2011, 04:59 PM

Originally posted by deejjjaaaa

you mean Canon's dSLR ? because as I said their other business did not help their photo gear sales at all

Actually the vast majority of dSLR on campus are Nikon and my Pentaxs.

Originally posted by deejjjaaaa

sales by BH & Adorama started immediately

upon release of the first m43 body by Panasonic... so it did not take anytime at all... so if it is your criteria then m43 hit the ground running.

Actually, just because sales of the bodies started immediately didn't mean much. It has taken the past year plus the next 6 months for some primes to start showing up for the system.

First there was the Oly 17/2.8
Then the Panny 20/1.7
Then panny released the 45/2.8 Leica macro
After a lag the 14/2.5 was released by panny
Voigtlander released a manual focus prime
Oly just announced a 12mm/2 (already on the market) and 45mm/1.8
Panny has a 25mm/1.4 comming out.

That isn't exactly hitting the ground running. Mostly what has been available has been lack luster zoom often big and clunky ones. Panny does have a pancake zoom in the pipeline according to rumors. Until it comes out the Oly 14-42 collapsible zoom is probably the most compact.

Adorama just announced this for pre-order from Ricoh.

170613 Ricoh GXR Mount A12 for Leica M Lenses

Blue · 09-05-2011, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by fejker

I don't think we understand each other very well. You're talking about using K-mount lenses on NORMAL FF bodies and m4/3 systems ... that is all well and works fine, what I was replying to was using the same lenses on a mirrorless FF. The post I replied to was suggesting that Pentax should make a mirrorless FF camera and use the existing lenses and that would just not work without an extension tube because the lenses simply would not cover the whole sensor.

I hope you understand now that I'm not saying K-mount lenses don't work on FF but they wouldn't work on a mirrorless FF (at least not without using an extension that would not go well with the "make the camera smaller" moto).

O.k. I am not going to argue about a ff mirrorless. That would defeat the whole purpose of a big bright optical viewfinder.

Blue · 09-05-2011, 05:03 PM

Originally posted by Fontan

How do you define "many?" Just wondering. Is, say, 10,000 units many??

A $100M sale isn't too bad.

**Aristophanes** · 09-05-2011, 06:22 PM

The market breaks down like this:

1. MF DSLR
2. FF DSLR
3. FF mirrorless
4. APS-C DSLR
5. APS-C mirrorless
6. Bridge/Superzoom/Pentax Q
7. P&S

You get 5 of 7. That's all the resources Pentax can probably spare.

Remember: DSLR glass likely cannot work on mirrorless bodies without losing AF amongst other registration issues, which will kill sales for 99% of potential purchasers. So each of these options requires its own, discrete lens array. I think the drawbacks to supporting multiple mounts are less than many make them out to be. Design and manufacture may be easier now than ever. The kicker is likely distribution, marketing, and warranty support.

Olympus and Panasonic are alive only in options 5, 6, and 7 and are doing OK with market share and sales, though I believe the M43 sensor cannot endure for more than another 5 years. These 2 large, capable companies don't cover everything.

Canikon are not in mirrorless anything...yet. Likely because the split/cannibalize the market problem vexes them.

Then there's the disruptor option like the Fuji X100. Call it APS-C mirrorless. Leica is FF mirrorless, but a manual focus throwback, though they say they are working on an AF system at lower price points.

And Sony. They look the like the one company about to make a go in everything but MF DSLR. They have the other disruptor like the pellicle SLT series.

You see why dropping the whole FF thing is appealing to a company that cannot be in every market. Even Leica has something to do with P&S and every brand still releases bridge cameras ad nauseum, and the tourist area by the cruise ships I walk by every day on the way to work, I see an awful lot of those types of cameras. All the other P&S's are in purses or pockets, but the non-DSLR bigger camera with a grip is very popular. But FF is very rare and a market so hard to compete in with sensor prices being what they are.

atlnq9 · 09-05-2011, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Christine Tham

If Pentax becomes successful with their Q strategy, that will then create an incentive for them to build a full frame camera to allow their customer base to trade up to a "real" camera for shallow DOF etc.

I am pretty sure anybody buying a Q and some toys as their first interchangeable lens camera is not going to jump from that to FF. They will go to a Kr. People that will trade up to FF will come from the Kr or K5 levels...

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09-05-2011, 10:51 AM	#91
atlnq9 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Arizona Photos: Albums Posts: 330	In my opinion it depends on what Ricoh wants to do with Pentax. Do they want to take on the top two, or do they want to keep introducing very well priced prosumer cameras that attract buyers who fully evaluate cameras before they buy? If they introduce FF it needs to be situated to attract entering pros and high level prosumers. A good FF lens base needs to come out at the same time, which is no big feat for Pentax. Bring out D-FA* lenses add maybe one or two new lenses. They aren't going to introduce a 35mm FF that starts switching pros that are highly invested in glass. Introduce a new updated FF 2yrs later that still offers the cheapest FF with just enough features to lock in more entering users. They need to build a system to lock new pros in let them become invested in Pentax's top glass and then wham the K1** comes out just when these users need it. You won't see me switching because of just the small amount of glass I have, the Canikon versions will break me. I can't justify spending 3 times as much to get a 300 2.8 with a canon sticker. That seems to be the philosophy with the 645D. The 645D is the cheapest entry level MF. Offers all the features needed, in fact beats in many regards since it was easy to transfer K5-645D knowledge back and forth. The 25mm from reviews is a awesome hit of a lens, fits FF medium format. Same with the 55mm. There is plenty of 645 glass availible so Pentax is only bringing out what it knows will sell. If the supply of 645 glass used drops then I am sure Pentax will reissue. Pentax has already claimed to be bringing out a couple new 645 lenses in the future. They are preparing and setting up for a 645D* with full frame in the future. I don't see a cheaper 645D coming out though. Because of this I might just buy into the 645D, no matter what I do 35mm will never catch it on a IQ bases. I don't need the AF of what 35mm offers. This camera won't be out done for many years on a quality/value standpoint, one great investment. Yeah Pentax may come out with the 645D II or FF and all my glass would be ready for it! Last edited by atlnq9; 09-05-2011 at 10:57 AM.

09-05-2011, 11:55 AM	#92
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by atlnq9 There is plenty of 645 glass availible so Pentax is only bringing out what it knows will sell. If the supply of 645 glass used drops then I am sure Pentax will reissue. Pentax has already claimed to be bringing out a couple new 645 lenses in the future. Most shops carrying the 645D seems to have a lot of the old lenses available - are these from previous production runs or did they produce new batches of them?

09-05-2011, 12:36 PM	#93
Christine Tham Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,269	Originally posted by Rondec It has been touched on already in this thread, but prior to thinking about releasing a full frame camera, Pentax needs a much better support system. My experience is that turn around time on fixing a lens is 2 to 3 weeks. There are only two places in the United States that rent lenses for Pentax. Pentax cameras aren't even in stores. I can walk into my local Walmart and see an entry level Nikon, but not a Pentax. In such a situation, it is amazing that Pentax has any market share at all. Some of those things would need to change prior to launching such a camera. Basically, there will always be attrition as you move up in price range. The K5 probably sells ten percent of the number of kx sales, just because it is more expensive. Move up to a 3000 dollar full frame and the number of sales will be ten percent of K5 sales. Currently that would be a pretty small number. Build the bottom end somehow and you could feed a full frame camera. You just need to have a good foundation before you build the house. Agree completely. Despite the 645D being a groundbreaking MF digital, I don't see many people buying it. Even the markets for Canon and Nikon full frames are extremely small - miniscule compared to the overall camera market. Actually, people who want Pentax to make a full frame camera should wish that Pentax sell a gazillion Qs to Pretty Young Things in China, and that Ricoh help Pentax revitalise their dealer network. If Pentax becomes successful with their Q strategy, that will then create an incentive for them to build a full frame camera to allow their customer base to trade up to a "real" camera for shallow DOF etc. Then they can resurrect their FA glasses and resell them. So who knows we may yet see a pink Hello Kitty Pentax full frame in the future. Don't worry, I'm sure they will make a Gundam or Evangelion edition as well for the boys.

09-05-2011, 01:34 PM	#94
atlnq9 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Arizona Photos: Albums Posts: 330	Originally posted by gazonk Most shops carrying the 645D seems to have a lot of the old lenses available - are these from previous production runs or did they produce new batches of them? Forgive us going off topic here. The shop I have been to just had used glass, there is a lot available at reasonable prices. However, Pentax Canada claims the AF lenses are still in production. They must just be a special order item which I can't see any need doing unless they still special order the 600 5.6. I would say they still have lots of new old stock parts they can throw together just like there were several FA* lenses that could still be special ordered until a few years back. Pentax 645D Interview Last edited by atlnq9; 09-05-2011 at 03:18 PM.

09-05-2011, 01:43 PM	#95
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by Blue Well, they just kicked canon's ass off my campus. you mean Canon's dSLR ? because as I said their other business did not help their photo gear sales at all Originally posted by Blue Besides, that system is just now getting traction and just started being sold by BH and Adorama. Look how long it has taken the m4/3 system to start getting traction as a system. sales by BH & Adorama started immediately upon release of the first m43 body by Panasonic... so it did not take anytime at all... so if it is your criteria then m43 hit the ground running.

09-05-2011, 01:47 PM	#96
deejjjaaaa Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: steel city / rust belt Posts: 2,043	Originally posted by Blue the name that taught Nikon and Canon what an SLR was supposed to look like and how it should work. and as any good teacher it was left in the dust (marketshare) by capable pupils

09-05-2011, 02:05 PM	#97
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	Originally posted by gazonk Most shops carrying the 645D seems to have a lot of the old lenses available - are these from previous production runs or did they produce new batches of them? As said somewhere else on this forum, Pentax resumed all FA line production about 2 years ago. The product line is on sale as new on several official sites.

09-05-2011, 03:45 PM	#98
fejker Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Slovenia Photos: Gallery Posts: 258	Originally posted by Blue Actually, you are flat wrong. There is no problem with k-mount lenses covering the 4/3 sensor with registration distance adjusted for by the adapter. Also, there is no problem with full frame K-mount lenses used on canon EF full frame bodies the same way are any k-mount lenses on aps-c canon bodies via adapter. I don't think we understand each other very well. You're talking about using K-mount lenses on NORMAL FF bodies and m4/3 systems ... that is all well and works fine, what I was replying to was using the same lenses on a mirrorless FF. The post I replied to was suggesting that Pentax should make a mirrorless FF camera and use the existing lenses and that would just not work without an extension tube because the lenses simply would not cover the whole sensor. I hope you understand now that I'm not saying K-mount lenses don't work on FF but they wouldn't work on a mirrorless FF (at least not without using an extension that would not go well with the "make the camera smaller" moto).

09-05-2011, 04:03 PM	#99
stanleyk Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Taylor, Texas Posts: 1,018	Valuable advice: The Visual Science Lab / Kirk Tuck: Ten ways to win an argument on a forum.

09-05-2011, 04:50 PM	#100
Fontan Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: 5th floor Posts: 1,610	Originally posted by Christine Tham Agree completely. Despite the 645D being a groundbreaking MF digital, I don't see many people buying it. Even the markets for Canon and Nikon full frames are extremely small - miniscule compared to the overall camera market. Actually, people who want Pentax to make a full frame camera should wish that Pentax sell a gazillion Qs to Pretty Young Things in China, and that Ricoh help Pentax revitalise their dealer network. If Pentax becomes successful with their Q strategy, that will then create an incentive for them to build a full frame camera to allow their customer base to trade up to a "real" camera for shallow DOF etc. Then they can resurrect their FA glasses and resell them. So who knows we may yet see a pink Hello Kitty Pentax full frame in the future. Don't worry, I'm sure they will make a Gundam or Evangelion edition as well for the boys. How do you define "many?" Just wondering. Is, say, 10,000 units many??

09-05-2011, 04:59 PM	#101
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by deejjjaaaa you mean Canon's dSLR ? because as I said their other business did not help their photo gear sales at all Actually the vast majority of dSLR on campus are Nikon and my Pentaxs. Originally posted by deejjjaaaa sales by BH & Adorama started immediately upon release of the first m43 body by Panasonic... so it did not take anytime at all... so if it is your criteria then m43 hit the ground running. Actually, just because sales of the bodies started immediately didn't mean much. It has taken the past year plus the next 6 months for some primes to start showing up for the system. First there was the Oly 17/2.8 Then the Panny 20/1.7 Then panny released the 45/2.8 Leica macro After a lag the 14/2.5 was released by panny Voigtlander released a manual focus prime Oly just announced a 12mm/2 (already on the market) and 45mm/1.8 Panny has a 25mm/1.4 comming out. That isn't exactly hitting the ground running. Mostly what has been available has been lack luster zoom often big and clunky ones. Panny does have a pancake zoom in the pipeline according to rumors. Until it comes out the Oly 14-42 collapsible zoom is probably the most compact. Adorama just announced this for pre-order from Ricoh. 170613 Ricoh GXR Mount A12 for Leica M Lenses

09-05-2011, 05:01 PM	#102
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by fejker I don't think we understand each other very well. You're talking about using K-mount lenses on NORMAL FF bodies and m4/3 systems ... that is all well and works fine, what I was replying to was using the same lenses on a mirrorless FF. The post I replied to was suggesting that Pentax should make a mirrorless FF camera and use the existing lenses and that would just not work without an extension tube because the lenses simply would not cover the whole sensor. I hope you understand now that I'm not saying K-mount lenses don't work on FF but they wouldn't work on a mirrorless FF (at least not without using an extension that would not go well with the "make the camera smaller" moto). O.k. I am not going to argue about a ff mirrorless. That would defeat the whole purpose of a big bright optical viewfinder.

09-05-2011, 05:03 PM	#103
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by Fontan How do you define "many?" Just wondering. Is, say, 10,000 units many?? A $100M sale isn't too bad.

09-05-2011, 06:22 PM	#104
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	The market breaks down like this: 1. MF DSLR 2. FF DSLR 3. FF mirrorless 4. APS-C DSLR 5. APS-C mirrorless 6. Bridge/Superzoom/Pentax Q 7. P&S You get 5 of 7. That's all the resources Pentax can probably spare. Remember: DSLR glass likely cannot work on mirrorless bodies without losing AF amongst other registration issues, which will kill sales for 99% of potential purchasers. So each of these options requires its own, discrete lens array. I think the drawbacks to supporting multiple mounts are less than many make them out to be. Design and manufacture may be easier now than ever. The kicker is likely distribution, marketing, and warranty support. Olympus and Panasonic are alive only in options 5, 6, and 7 and are doing OK with market share and sales, though I believe the M43 sensor cannot endure for more than another 5 years. These 2 large, capable companies don't cover everything. Canikon are not in mirrorless anything...yet. Likely because the split/cannibalize the market problem vexes them. Then there's the disruptor option like the Fuji X100. Call it APS-C mirrorless. Leica is FF mirrorless, but a manual focus throwback, though they say they are working on an AF system at lower price points. And Sony. They look the like the one company about to make a go in everything but MF DSLR. They have the other disruptor like the pellicle SLT series. You see why dropping the whole FF thing is appealing to a company that cannot be in every market. Even Leica has something to do with P&S and every brand still releases bridge cameras ad nauseum, and the tourist area by the cruise ships I walk by every day on the way to work, I see an awful lot of those types of cameras. All the other P&S's are in purses or pockets, but the non-DSLR bigger camera with a grip is very popular. But FF is very rare and a market so hard to compete in with sensor prices being what they are.

09-05-2011, 07:00 PM	#105
atlnq9 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Arizona Photos: Albums Posts: 330	Originally posted by Christine Tham If Pentax becomes successful with their Q strategy, that will then create an incentive for them to build a full frame camera to allow their customer base to trade up to a "real" camera for shallow DOF etc. I am pretty sure anybody buying a Q and some toys as their first interchangeable lens camera is not going to jump from that to FF. They will go to a Kr. People that will trade up to FF will come from the Kr or K5 levels...