Some Thoughts Pentax and Full Frame

atlnq9 · 09-05-2011, 07:09 PM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

You see why dropping the whole FF thing is appealing to a company that cannot be in every market.

I see why mirrorless is un-appealing. You either have the same width body and loose the penta-prism or develop another lens line. Pentax has a well developed APS-C and FF lens line already for 35mm registration distances.

RioRico · 09-05-2011, 08:59 PM

In my country is a phrase: Reading the tea-leaves. Originally from fortune-telling, it implies grasping at clues to try to divine the dynamics and potential actions of an opaque organization, and speculating thereupon. T'was a common practice of Westerners studying and blathering about Politburos.

What I see here is tea-leaf reading, minus most tea leaves. We have scant official facts and hints about future directions for Pentax-Ricoh; we have incomplete data about relevant markets; we have our own hopes and dreams and gear-lusts; we mix these together to build NeverNeverLand models of product releases. And then we elaborately critique these airy castles. Whew! I almost feel like I'm at an excited symposium of Kremlinologists.

But hay! It's entertaining!

[Entertainment: How we structure and occupy our time when not doing anything productive.]

**Fontan** · 09-05-2011, 09:30 PM

Originally posted by Blue

A $100M sale isn't too bad.

You would think so . . .

Warpig · 09-05-2011, 11:11 PM

Well, i'm glad almost everyone liked my "petition" about a big optical viewfinder

And on a second thought, maybe a 35mm sensor camera would be nice just for Pentax to have the most complete system of the world: compact point & shoot, intechangeable compact, aps-c, 135 and medium format. Just for the fun and pride of it

I mean, after some years of development, they release the 645D with JUST 2 "digital opimized" lenses, and it already have won several awards.
Pentax is a great brand for photographers, maybe not for chart's geeks.

fejker · 09-06-2011, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by Blue

O.k. I am not going to argue about a ff mirrorless. That would defeat the whole purpose of a big bright optical viewfinder.

Agreed, I'm not too happy about a mirrorless ff myself.

markac · 09-06-2011, 01:16 AM

I'd go with a 1.2 or 1.3 crop camera as something different that Pentax could do perhaps at around 28MP? However I still think there's a market for a K20D sized FF Pentax, that would allow the enthusiast to enter the FF arena at an affordable price. Ie: below what the Sony A850 was selling for. After all, APS-C was originally supposed to be a stop gap format until FF sensors became easier to make and more affordable. Unfortunately it's entrenched itself as some kind of de-facto mainstream.

As to a large 4:3 sensor? No thanks. I've spent most of may career working in television with Broadcast TV cameras and I was glad to see the back of 4:3 when we adopted 16:9. I have shot some 6 x 4.5 and 6 x 7 medium format, but I always cropped back to 3:2. Thankfully even my digital compact (a Samsung WB2000/TL350) will shoot in 3:2.

Winder · 09-06-2011, 07:53 AM

Originally posted by markac

As to a large 4:3 sensor? No thanks. I've spent most of may career working in television with Broadcast TV cameras and I was glad to see the back of 4:3 when we adopted 16:9. I have shot some 6 x 4.5 and 6 x 7 medium format, but I always cropped back to 3:2. Thankfully even my digital compact (a Samsung WB2000/TL350) will shoot in 3:2.

I am the opposite. I shot 6x6, 6x7 and 645 for years. I find the 4/3 format of 645 to be perfect for still images. I would love to see a ff or APS-H sized sensor in a 4/3 format.

If I were a video guy then I would agree with you, but not for still images. I end up cropping all my 3/2 images down to 4/3 for printing and by doing so give up the advantage that APS-C has over 4/3. I could go from my Contax 645 to my Olympus E-3 and have the same format.

**maxfield_photo** · 09-06-2011, 08:18 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Aristophanes

The market breaks down like this:

1. MF DSLR
2. FF DSLR
3. FF mirrorless
4. APS-C DSLR
5. APS-C mirrorless
6. Bridge/Superzoom/Pentax Q
7. P&S

You get 5 of 7. That's all the resources Pentax can probably spare.

Ok, I'll take MF DLSR, FF DSLR, and just cuz folks seems to like it, APS-C DSLR. Ah what the hell, throw in a P&S too, so average joes can learn the name Pentax. Now since I only picked 4, can I have my FF sooner?

Kunzite · 09-06-2011, 08:25 AM

You'll have to buy the 645D in order for this to work

**Aristophanes** · 09-06-2011, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by maxfield_photo

Ok, I'll take MF DLSR, FF DSLR, and just cuz folks seems to like it, APS-C DSLR. Ah what the hell, throw in a P&S too, so average joes can learn the name Pentax. Now since I only picked 4, can I have my FF sooner?

I have an MZ-50 for you. Will have to do for the next half-decade I'm afraid.

bwDraco · 09-06-2011, 09:32 AM

PENTAX has a rudimentary pro program: PENTAX Professional Services press release

Note that eligible 645D owners are automatically entered into PENTAX Professional Services. The Ricoh-PENTAX acquisition could be leveraged to expand this program and eventually bring it to the same level as Canon and Nikon.

--DragonLord

NightPorter · 09-06-2011, 09:47 AM

I would rather prefer new Pentax DSLR is FF senor with 24mp than APS-C senor with 24mp

RonHendriks1966 · 09-06-2011, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

The market breaks down like this:

1. MF DSLR
2. FF DSLR
3. FF mirrorless
4. APS-C DSLR
5. APS-C mirrorless
6. Bridge/Superzoom/Pentax Q
7. P&S

You get 5 of 7. That's all the resources Pentax can probably spare.

You see why dropping the whole FF thing is appealing to a company that cannot be in every market.

Well market is even a little more diversed then this list. The price difference between products in some of those markets is so big that they have a market of their own. I don't see the same customers entering a store for a Canon 1100D and walking out with a 7D, maybe one step up, but not two. Some-one walking in a store for a 7D can be pushed into 5D, but not towards 1D.

For P&S there are the real cheap camera's and the LX5's. Also the wheaterseald camera's that are rudget enough to take snorkeling is a market of it's own.

The x90 is not a real good camera in that superzoomsegment.

So Pentax isn't even in all those different markets.

I think that Ricoh should look into their strategy and realize that some of the current products aren't very good or different in their own way or contributing to the Pentax brand as a whole. Going into outdoors camera's company and making good products that don't scare for invironments when it drizzles is a way to go. Making camera's where there is no question about Image Quality is another important strategy. When you look at those tests for compacts at Dpreview there should be no question about scoring hi points in some category's.

And I still think that there is a place for a new Hi-end dslr above K-5 in future line-up. Maybe it is a full frame, or maybe we first get a step-up aps-c. Or maybe we get something in between (wich I do prefer).

**Aristophanes** · 09-06-2011, 10:36 AM

I was simply breaking the market down by sensor sizes and discrete lens systems, all of which can AF.

I purposefully left out APS-H as it has no legs. Canon appears likely to drop it. Leica already did.

With the exception of the extremely rarified Leica M9, AF is a requirement for sales.

All categories have their price point variations. 645D to Hasselblad is $40,000!

Racerdew · 09-06-2011, 10:56 AM

Wow, some interesting responses by everyone. and thank you Sperdynamite for that article on this subject. I too think it would be nice to see Pentax go up one level to a FF digital cameral. I mean an affordable one. 10K and a choice of 2 lenses is like Ford or Toyota coming out with a Phantom car that is awesome but no one will ever own or dirve. It has to be cost effective and profitable for Pentax. they are currently doing a great job with their last two cameras! I am amazed what I get out of my very affordable K-r. Sometimes I doubt how good it is based on what I paid for the camera. Then I go take some shots and that all goes away.

09-05-2011, 08:59 PM	#107
RioRico Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Limbo, California Posts: 11,263	prophesy In my country is a phrase: Reading the tea-leaves. Originally from fortune-telling, it implies grasping at clues to try to divine the dynamics and potential actions of an opaque organization, and speculating thereupon. T'was a common practice of Westerners studying and blathering about Politburos. What I see here is tea-leaf reading, minus most tea leaves. We have scant official facts and hints about future directions for Pentax-Ricoh; we have incomplete data about relevant markets; we have our own hopes and dreams and gear-lusts; we mix these together to build NeverNeverLand models of product releases. And then we elaborately critique these airy castles. Whew! I almost feel like I'm at an excited symposium of Kremlinologists. But hay! It's entertaining! [Entertainment: How we structure and occupy our time when not doing anything productive.]

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Some Full-frame shots & thoughts	jsherman999	Canon, Nikon, Sony, and Other Camera Brands	5592	03-30-2024 12:41 AM
Pentax and Full Frame	oppositz	Pentax DSLR Discussion	58	03-18-2011 09:39 AM
Full frame pentax	cem.kumuk	Pentax DSLR Discussion	11	11-12-2010 03:13 PM
Pentax and Full Frame...	Shutter-bug	Photographic Technique	60	11-03-2010 10:03 AM
Pentax A 50/1.2 on Full Frame	aegisphan	Pentax SLR Lens Discussion	23	10-28-2010 04:16 PM

09-05-2011, 07:09 PM	#106
atlnq9 Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Arizona Photos: Albums Posts: 330	Originally posted by Aristophanes You see why dropping the whole FF thing is appealing to a company that cannot be in every market. I see why mirrorless is un-appealing. You either have the same width body and loose the penta-prism or develop another lens line. Pentax has a well developed APS-C and FF lens line already for 35mm registration distances.

09-05-2011, 09:30 PM	#108
Fontan Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: 5th floor Posts: 1,610	Originally posted by Blue A $100M sale isn't too bad. You would think so . . .

09-05-2011, 11:11 PM	#109
Warpig Forum Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Temuco, Chile Posts: 53	Well, i'm glad almost everyone liked my "petition" about a big optical viewfinder And on a second thought, maybe a 35mm sensor camera would be nice just for Pentax to have the most complete system of the world: compact point & shoot, intechangeable compact, aps-c, 135 and medium format. Just for the fun and pride of it I mean, after some years of development, they release the 645D with JUST 2 "digital opimized" lenses, and it already have won several awards. Pentax is a great brand for photographers, maybe not for chart's geeks.

09-06-2011, 12:46 AM	#110
fejker Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Slovenia Photos: Gallery Posts: 258	Originally posted by Blue O.k. I am not going to argue about a ff mirrorless. That would defeat the whole purpose of a big bright optical viewfinder. Agreed, I'm not too happy about a mirrorless ff myself.

09-06-2011, 01:16 AM	#111
markac Forum Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Adelaide Posts: 84	I'd go with a 1.2 or 1.3 crop camera as something different that Pentax could do perhaps at around 28MP? However I still think there's a market for a K20D sized FF Pentax, that would allow the enthusiast to enter the FF arena at an affordable price. Ie: below what the Sony A850 was selling for. After all, APS-C was originally supposed to be a stop gap format until FF sensors became easier to make and more affordable. Unfortunately it's entrenched itself as some kind of de-facto mainstream. As to a large 4:3 sensor? No thanks. I've spent most of may career working in television with Broadcast TV cameras and I was glad to see the back of 4:3 when we adopted 16:9. I have shot some 6 x 4.5 and 6 x 7 medium format, but I always cropped back to 3:2. Thankfully even my digital compact (a Samsung WB2000/TL350) will shoot in 3:2.

09-06-2011, 07:53 AM	#112
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by markac As to a large 4:3 sensor? No thanks. I've spent most of may career working in television with Broadcast TV cameras and I was glad to see the back of 4:3 when we adopted 16:9. I have shot some 6 x 4.5 and 6 x 7 medium format, but I always cropped back to 3:2. Thankfully even my digital compact (a Samsung WB2000/TL350) will shoot in 3:2. I am the opposite. I shot 6x6, 6x7 and 645 for years. I find the 4/3 format of 645 to be perfect for still images. I would love to see a ff or APS-H sized sensor in a 4/3 format. If I were a video guy then I would agree with you, but not for still images. I end up cropping all my 3/2 images down to 4/3 for printing and by doing so give up the advantage that APS-C has over 4/3. I could go from my Contax 645 to my Olympus E-3 and have the same format.

09-06-2011, 08:18 AM - 1 Like	#113
maxfield_photo Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 1,216	Originally posted by Aristophanes The market breaks down like this: 1. MF DSLR 2. FF DSLR 3. FF mirrorless 4. APS-C DSLR 5. APS-C mirrorless 6. Bridge/Superzoom/Pentax Q 7. P&S You get 5 of 7. That's all the resources Pentax can probably spare. Ok, I'll take MF DLSR, FF DSLR, and just cuz folks seems to like it, APS-C DSLR. Ah what the hell, throw in a P&S too, so average joes can learn the name Pentax. Now since I only picked 4, can I have my FF sooner?

09-06-2011, 08:25 AM	#114
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	You'll have to buy the 645D in order for this to work

09-06-2011, 09:28 AM	#115
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by maxfield_photo Ok, I'll take MF DLSR, FF DSLR, and just cuz folks seems to like it, APS-C DSLR. Ah what the hell, throw in a P&S too, so average joes can learn the name Pentax. Now since I only picked 4, can I have my FF sooner? I have an MZ-50 for you. Will have to do for the next half-decade I'm afraid.

09-06-2011, 09:32 AM	#116
bwDraco Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: New York Photos: Albums Posts: 1,071	PENTAX has a rudimentary pro program: PENTAX Professional Services press release Note that eligible 645D owners are automatically entered into PENTAX Professional Services. The Ricoh-PENTAX acquisition could be leveraged to expand this program and eventually bring it to the same level as Canon and Nikon. --DragonLord

09-06-2011, 09:47 AM	#117
NightPorter Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Hong Kong Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 83	I would rather prefer new Pentax DSLR is FF senor with 24mp than APS-C senor with 24mp

09-06-2011, 09:50 AM	#118
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Aristophanes The market breaks down like this: 1. MF DSLR 2. FF DSLR 3. FF mirrorless 4. APS-C DSLR 5. APS-C mirrorless 6. Bridge/Superzoom/Pentax Q 7. P&S You get 5 of 7. That's all the resources Pentax can probably spare. You see why dropping the whole FF thing is appealing to a company that cannot be in every market. Well market is even a little more diversed then this list. The price difference between products in some of those markets is so big that they have a market of their own. I don't see the same customers entering a store for a Canon 1100D and walking out with a 7D, maybe one step up, but not two. Some-one walking in a store for a 7D can be pushed into 5D, but not towards 1D. For P&S there are the real cheap camera's and the LX5's. Also the wheaterseald camera's that are rudget enough to take snorkeling is a market of it's own. The x90 is not a real good camera in that superzoomsegment. So Pentax isn't even in all those different markets. I think that Ricoh should look into their strategy and realize that some of the current products aren't very good or different in their own way or contributing to the Pentax brand as a whole. Going into outdoors camera's company and making good products that don't scare for invironments when it drizzles is a way to go. Making camera's where there is no question about Image Quality is another important strategy. When you look at those tests for compacts at Dpreview there should be no question about scoring hi points in some category's. And I still think that there is a place for a new Hi-end dslr above K-5 in future line-up. Maybe it is a full frame, or maybe we first get a step-up aps-c. Or maybe we get something in between (wich I do prefer).

09-06-2011, 10:36 AM	#119
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	I was simply breaking the market down by sensor sizes and discrete lens systems, all of which can AF. I purposefully left out APS-H as it has no legs. Canon appears likely to drop it. Leica already did. With the exception of the extremely rarified Leica M9, AF is a requirement for sales. All categories have their price point variations. 645D to Hasselblad is $40,000!

09-06-2011, 10:56 AM	#120
Racerdew Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Thousand Oaks, CA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 285	Wow, some interesting responses by everyone. and thank you Sperdynamite for that article on this subject. I too think it would be nice to see Pentax go up one level to a FF digital cameral. I mean an affordable one. 10K and a choice of 2 lenses is like Ford or Toyota coming out with a Phantom car that is awesome but no one will ever own or dirve. It has to be cost effective and profitable for Pentax. they are currently doing a great job with their last two cameras! I am amazed what I get out of my very affordable K-r. Sometimes I doubt how good it is based on what I paid for the camera. Then I go take some shots and that all goes away.