Some Thoughts Pentax and Full Frame

falconeye · 09-08-2011, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

That I am not seeing and if so, we're talking a decade or more to unfold.

You're right, we cannot know.

But Sony did quite a few long term gigs heading towards a direction they have in mind and being patient pursueing it.

E.g., their cameras still support the Memory Stick

BluRay and the PS3 stunt is another example.

Therefore, I see Sony bet on the E mount. But of course, this doesn't mean they have to give up the A mount any time soon.

**Aristophanes** · 09-08-2011, 12:34 PM

Whereas Pentax and the k-mount is another issue. Can Pentax continue a 2 body DSLR line, add FF, and dive into at least APS-C MILC? And what does that mean for the k-mount?

Sony and Canikon have the distribution and marketing to do so, and Sony and Canon in-house sensors. Pentax even under Ricoh is well shy those same resources. All within a small market share and small installed base. Some very tough corporate decisions lay ahead.

Christine Tham · 09-08-2011, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by ManuH

Really? What else do you really need? fps? it's still much faster than the 5D mk. II. The question is more how much bigger than a K-5 it has to be to accommodate a FF sensor.

If you have been reading my comments, it's not about what I need, or you, or anyone else. It's whether there is a viable market, which is the aggregation of what a specific target market wants.

I have already said I'll happily buy a full frame camera from Pentax if they choose to release it, no matter in what shape or form. Heck, all they really need to satisfy me is to paint the body pink and stick a Hello Kitty icon on it. I basically told them that last time I saw them (at the PMA booth) and we had a good laugh about it - they know me well. They keep calling me the Hello Kitty camera girl on Facebook.

A viable market will require more than just "K-5 with a FF sensor" (my opinion only of course, I have not done the market research and Pentax's market research indicated that the people they were targeting wanted something like a Q).

The K-5 is faster than the 5D Mk II only because it is essentially the electronics from the 645D (large buffers etc. optimised for MF) housed in an APS-C body - that's why it has such impressive fps and number of raw shots in continuous mode.

If Pentax uses the same electronics with a full frame sensor, it may end up as slow/limited as the 5D Mk II. Pentax really needs to move to a new generation of CPU to support a FF sensor - something fast enough to support SDXC UHS-I, be able to take 6-10 fps for at least 2-3 seconds. A really fast and usable Live View (if it is not a mirrorless), semi-pro video controls and support for AVCHD.

That I think will wow the market and create good buzz, and overcome the disadvantage of not being able to use DA lenses.

Remember it's quite likely the 5D Mark III is just around the corner, and given Canon has been losing market share in recent years and Sony's new camera announcements, this really needs to be a game changer for Canon. Canon already has the advantage that USM is so much better than SDM.

So all in all, now is the wrong time for Pentax to release an FF camera. Much better to wait until the hype around the Sonys and the 5D Mark III die down, then leapfrog them :-)

jsherman999 · 09-08-2011, 02:02 PM

.

I see some of the same type of thinking in this thread that, over time, leads to...

I think Ricoh will invest sooner rather than later. "Later" is always the safe choice, "later" provides a nice CYA smokescreen for execs who just don't want to be fired, and want to just hang on...

When the majority of your strategy hinges on lens rollout, which takes the most time, waiting too long just puts you behind. Further. Again.

.

Last edited by jsherman999; 09-08-2011 at 02:11 PM.

froeschle · 09-08-2011, 02:16 PM

Some short remarks after quick reading:

Quote:

if their FF will become SLT or SLR

Sony seriously considering a pro-level SLT | News | TechRadar UK

Quote:

IMHO, SLT kills the A mount.

If FF is the future of pro-level cameras: Would the E-mount really be capable to host such a FF sensor?

Quote:

If I were Ricoh, I'll join the E mount licensees

Sony Global - News Releases - Sony Discloses Basic Specifications of the "E-mount" for Interchangeable Single Lens Cameras without Fee

Quote:

Sony Corporation announced today it will disclose the basic specifications of its "E-mount" for interchangeable single lens cameras, without fee, to manufacturers of lenses and mount adaptors, starting April 1st, 2011.
This opens the way for manufacturers of various lenses and mount adaptors to effectively develop products conforming to "E-mount" specifications.

**jerryleejr** · 09-08-2011, 02:22 PM

The lens issue alone would prevent me from switching as much as I wrestled with the D700 vs 5D MkII and opting for a K7 to tide me over until the dust settles on the "Next move".
In regards to speed I believe there are cameras being released now with essentially dual processors so couple that with dual SD slots and I think we have a winner oh and an adapter for all my lenses

JJ

RonHendriks1966 · 09-08-2011, 02:40 PM

Well most of the money is earnt in DSLR an Canon has 45 % marketshare and sold 5.9 million camerabody's. I wonder how it is with pentax there. If they have a 5 % marketshare then that would mean 650.000 camerabody's. A 5 % share of that is 32.500 FF body's. That is enough for starting a productionline I think.

Canon Hanging on to Mirrors Means Opportunity for Sony, Panasonic Cameras - Bloomberg

**jerryleejr** · 09-08-2011, 02:52 PM

And I know it is strictly a marketing thing but Why cant we have a dedicated Camera? If I wanted video I would have a video camera, Think of how much more could be added to the camera quality if money wasnt diverted to the video aspect.

JJ

zxaar · 09-08-2011, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by jsherman999

I'd say... weird-if-true.

maybe interesting, let me think about it.

.

It is actually true. For me now a days k-x mainly collects dust but R1 is in use again.

jsherman999 · 09-08-2011, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by jerryleejr

And I know it is strictly a marketing thing but Why cant we have a dedicated Camera? If I wanted video I would have a video camera, Think of how much more could be added to the camera quality if money wasnt diverted to the video aspect.

JJ

I don't think it really adds that much to the cost of a camera, though. Any camera capable of live view can have at least a rudimentary video feature. I suspect even If you're talking about making a sensor minus on-chip buffer minus required socket minus larger bus capable of supporting video, it still wouldn't save that much money really, and at this point that would be a specialty sensor and socket that would probably cost more.

I'm not personally doing video on DSLR, but the larger sensor, great optics and capability for shallow DOF really bring something new to amateur video, even pro video. As I said before I'm convinced I'm seeing more commercials made with DSLRs, I just recognize the new 'look' for the video, one I'm only accustomed to seeing in DSLR shots. It's probably a 5DII usually, although I guess it could be RED also.

.

Class A · 09-08-2011, 04:50 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

The exact link you cite says that the decision is pending.

The text I linked to may be regarded as contradicting itself because it both

quotes Paul Genge from Sony UK that a decision is still pending, but also
clearly states
Not a single one of those [new fullframe cameras in 2012] will have a classic DSLR design (no classic mirror, no prisma)

This is how you can read the text: Sonyalpharumours know more than Paul Genge is willing to give away at this point. They clearly state the rumour that none of the 2012 FF cameras will have a classic SLR design.

Whether Paul Genge talks about 2013 cameras, whether he knows more than he is willing to give away at this point, or whether sonyalpharumours is wrong to state that the 2012 FF cameras will be SLT we don't know.

I personally don't want an EVF. Perhaps using one with non-noticeable delay in practice will convince me otherwise. It should come with extra functionality then, like focus peaking when using manual focus.

**jerryleejr** · 09-08-2011, 04:54 PM - **1 Like**

Rest assured whatever I have bought into will be discontinued and replaced.

JJ

**ManuH** · 09-08-2011, 05:16 PM

Originally posted by jerryleejr

Think of how much more could be added to the camera quality if money wasnt diverted to the video aspect.

Unfortunately Pentax don't have their say in this, the sensors are developed by Samsung, Sony, etc. They all spend a lot of R&D to incorporate video features. And of course it would be uncompetitive for Pentax to not take advantage of these features.

**Aristophanes** · 09-08-2011, 05:21 PM

Argh! Someone said AVCHD.

No, no, no! Heaven's no.

Not a barely editable, proprietary video format owned by Sony and Panasonic and hated be every OS coder. No.

H.264 please. Far more versatile if you're going to compress.

**ManuH** · 09-08-2011, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Christine Tham

If Pentax uses the same electronics with a full frame sensor, it may end up as slow/limited as the 5D Mk II. Pentax really needs to move to a new generation of CPU to support a FF sensor - something fast enough to support SDXC UHS-I, be able to take 6-10 fps for at least 2-3 seconds. A really fast and usable Live View (if it is not a mirrorless), semi-pro video controls and support for AVCHD.

That I think will wow the market and create good buzz, and overcome the disadvantage of not being able to use DA lenses.

It would be a mistake to not give the ability to use DA lenses. I'm pretty sure a Pentax FF will use DA lenses with no issue except the needed cropping. Of course the FF camera should be based on the K-3 electronics to be comfortably competitive, not the K-5. But currently I would be perfectly satisfied with a K-5 upgraded with just a FF sensor. For improving CD-AF they need faster sensor read speed (a given), faster CPU (same) and better algorithms. The K-5 is already much faster than the K-7 to the point of being usable for all but moving subjects.

09-08-2011, 02:02 PM	#169
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Quivering Lips Sink Corporate Ships . I see some of the same type of thinking in this thread that, over time, leads to... I think Ricoh will invest sooner rather than later. "Later" is always the safe choice, "later" provides a nice CYA smokescreen for execs who just don't want to be fired, and want to just hang on... When the majority of your strategy hinges on lens rollout, which takes the most time, waiting too long just puts you behind. Further. Again. . Last edited by jsherman999; 09-08-2011 at 02:11 PM.

09-08-2011, 04:04 PM	#175
jsherman999 Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,237	Originally posted by jerryleejr And I know it is strictly a marketing thing but Why cant we have a dedicated Camera? If I wanted video I would have a video camera, Think of how much more could be added to the camera quality if money wasnt diverted to the video aspect. JJ I don't think it really adds that much to the cost of a camera, though. Any camera capable of live view can have at least a rudimentary video feature. I suspect even If you're talking about making a sensor minus on-chip buffer minus required socket minus larger bus capable of supporting video, it still wouldn't save that much money really, and at this point that would be a specialty sensor and socket that would probably cost more. I'm not personally doing video on DSLR, but the larger sensor, great optics and capability for shallow DOF really bring something new to amateur video, even pro video. As I said before I'm convinced I'm seeing more commercials made with DSLRs, I just recognize the new 'look' for the video, one I'm only accustomed to seeing in DSLR shots. It's probably a 5DII usually, although I guess it could be RED also. . Last edited by jsherman999; 09-08-2011 at 04:11 PM.

09-08-2011, 04:50 PM	#176
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251	Originally posted by falconeye The exact link you cite says that the decision is pending. The text I linked to may be regarded as contradicting itself because it both quotes Paul Genge from Sony UK that a decision is still pending, but also clearly states Not a single one of those [new fullframe cameras in 2012] will have a classic DSLR design (no classic mirror, no prisma) This is how you can read the text: Sonyalpharumours know more than Paul Genge is willing to give away at this point. They clearly state the rumour that none of the 2012 FF cameras will have a classic SLR design. Whether Paul Genge talks about 2013 cameras, whether he knows more than he is willing to give away at this point, or whether sonyalpharumours is wrong to state that the 2012 FF cameras will be SLT we don't know. I personally don't want an EVF. Perhaps using one with non-noticeable delay in practice will convince me otherwise. It should come with extra functionality then, like focus peaking when using manual focus.

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09-08-2011, 12:14 PM	#166
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by Aristophanes That I am not seeing and if so, we're talking a decade or more to unfold. You're right, we cannot know. But Sony did quite a few long term gigs heading towards a direction they have in mind and being patient pursueing it. E.g., their cameras still support the Memory Stick BluRay and the PS3 stunt is another example. Therefore, I see Sony bet on the E mount. But of course, this doesn't mean they have to give up the A mount any time soon.

09-08-2011, 12:34 PM	#167
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Whereas Pentax and the k-mount is another issue. Can Pentax continue a 2 body DSLR line, add FF, and dive into at least APS-C MILC? And what does that mean for the k-mount? Sony and Canikon have the distribution and marketing to do so, and Sony and Canon in-house sensors. Pentax even under Ricoh is well shy those same resources. All within a small market share and small installed base. Some very tough corporate decisions lay ahead.

09-08-2011, 01:45 PM	#168
Christine Tham Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Sydney, Australia Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,269	Originally posted by ManuH Really? What else do you really need? fps? it's still much faster than the 5D mk. II. The question is more how much bigger than a K-5 it has to be to accommodate a FF sensor. If you have been reading my comments, it's not about what I need, or you, or anyone else. It's whether there is a viable market, which is the aggregation of what a specific target market wants. I have already said I'll happily buy a full frame camera from Pentax if they choose to release it, no matter in what shape or form. Heck, all they really need to satisfy me is to paint the body pink and stick a Hello Kitty icon on it. I basically told them that last time I saw them (at the PMA booth) and we had a good laugh about it - they know me well. They keep calling me the Hello Kitty camera girl on Facebook. A viable market will require more than just "K-5 with a FF sensor" (my opinion only of course, I have not done the market research and Pentax's market research indicated that the people they were targeting wanted something like a Q). The K-5 is faster than the 5D Mk II only because it is essentially the electronics from the 645D (large buffers etc. optimised for MF) housed in an APS-C body - that's why it has such impressive fps and number of raw shots in continuous mode. If Pentax uses the same electronics with a full frame sensor, it may end up as slow/limited as the 5D Mk II. Pentax really needs to move to a new generation of CPU to support a FF sensor - something fast enough to support SDXC UHS-I, be able to take 6-10 fps for at least 2-3 seconds. A really fast and usable Live View (if it is not a mirrorless), semi-pro video controls and support for AVCHD. That I think will wow the market and create good buzz, and overcome the disadvantage of not being able to use DA lenses. Remember it's quite likely the 5D Mark III is just around the corner, and given Canon has been losing market share in recent years and Sony's new camera announcements, this really needs to be a game changer for Canon. Canon already has the advantage that USM is so much better than SDM. So all in all, now is the wrong time for Pentax to release an FF camera. Much better to wait until the hype around the Sonys and the 5D Mark III die down, then leapfrog them :-)

09-08-2011, 02:16 PM	#170
froeschle Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 552	Some short remarks after quick reading: Quote: if their FF will become SLT or SLR Sony seriously considering a pro-level SLT \| News \| TechRadar UK Quote: IMHO, SLT kills the A mount. If FF is the future of pro-level cameras: Would the E-mount really be capable to host such a FF sensor? Quote: If I were Ricoh, I'll join the E mount licensees Sony Global - News Releases - Sony Discloses Basic Specifications of the "E-mount" for Interchangeable Single Lens Cameras without Fee Quote: Sony Corporation announced today it will disclose the basic specifications of its "E-mount" for interchangeable single lens cameras, without fee, to manufacturers of lenses and mount adaptors, starting April 1st, 2011. This opens the way for manufacturers of various lenses and mount adaptors to effectively develop products conforming to "E-mount" specifications.

09-08-2011, 02:22 PM	#171
jerryleejr Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: TN Posts: 774	The lens issue alone would prevent me from switching as much as I wrestled with the D700 vs 5D MkII and opting for a K7 to tide me over until the dust settles on the "Next move". In regards to speed I believe there are cameras being released now with essentially dual processors so couple that with dual SD slots and I think we have a winner oh and an adapter for all my lenses JJ

09-08-2011, 02:40 PM	#172
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Well most of the money is earnt in DSLR an Canon has 45 % marketshare and sold 5.9 million camerabody's. I wonder how it is with pentax there. If they have a 5 % marketshare then that would mean 650.000 camerabody's. A 5 % share of that is 32.500 FF body's. That is enough for starting a productionline I think. Canon Hanging on to Mirrors Means Opportunity for Sony, Panasonic Cameras - Bloomberg

09-08-2011, 02:52 PM	#173
jerryleejr Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: TN Posts: 774	And I know it is strictly a marketing thing but Why cant we have a dedicated Camera? If I wanted video I would have a video camera, Think of how much more could be added to the camera quality if money wasnt diverted to the video aspect. JJ

09-08-2011, 02:58 PM	#174
zxaar Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: kobe/japan Posts: 510	Originally posted by jsherman999 I'd say... weird-if-true. maybe interesting, let me think about it. . It is actually true. For me now a days k-x mainly collects dust but R1 is in use again.

09-08-2011, 04:54 PM - 1 Like	#177
jerryleejr Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: TN Posts: 774	Rest assured whatever I have bought into will be discontinued and replaced. JJ

09-08-2011, 05:16 PM	#178
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by jerryleejr Think of how much more could be added to the camera quality if money wasnt diverted to the video aspect. Unfortunately Pentax don't have their say in this, the sensors are developed by Samsung, Sony, etc. They all spend a lot of R&D to incorporate video features. And of course it would be uncompetitive for Pentax to not take advantage of these features.

09-08-2011, 05:21 PM	#179
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Argh! Someone said AVCHD. No, no, no! Heaven's no. Not a barely editable, proprietary video format owned by Sony and Panasonic and hated be every OS coder. No. H.264 please. Far more versatile if you're going to compress.

09-08-2011, 05:23 PM	#180
ManuH Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Montreal Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,249	Originally posted by Christine Tham If Pentax uses the same electronics with a full frame sensor, it may end up as slow/limited as the 5D Mk II. Pentax really needs to move to a new generation of CPU to support a FF sensor - something fast enough to support SDXC UHS-I, be able to take 6-10 fps for at least 2-3 seconds. A really fast and usable Live View (if it is not a mirrorless), semi-pro video controls and support for AVCHD. That I think will wow the market and create good buzz, and overcome the disadvantage of not being able to use DA lenses. It would be a mistake to not give the ability to use DA lenses. I'm pretty sure a Pentax FF will use DA lenses with no issue except the needed cropping. Of course the FF camera should be based on the K-3 electronics to be comfortably competitive, not the K-5. But currently I would be perfectly satisfied with a K-5 upgraded with just a FF sensor. For improving CD-AF they need faster sensor read speed (a given), faster CPU (same) and better algorithms. The K-5 is already much faster than the K-7 to the point of being usable for all but moving subjects.