[Aristophanes]

Most implementations of AVCHD is H.264 in an .m2ts container. You can edit the .m2ts files. AVCHD is just a specification for the file/directory structure and allowable codecs - you also encode MPEG2 and M-JPEG into AVCHD format.

AVCHD is an attempt to take H.264 proprietary. All this so Panasonic could lock you into using their Viera HDTV's and Sony their Blu-Ray tech. it's not comparable in file format as a container to AVI or MOV which adhere to the MPEG and ISO guidelines (and HTML5). AVCHD applies file system constraints designed to funnel software to specific hardware and actually can make integrated H.264 encode/decode designs inapplicable, such as those on newer Intel and ARM chips.

AVCHD is a typical Sony concept designed to change at the licensees whim to drive you to buy Sony products in perpetuity. For long term archiving, AVCHD is a format to steer clear of. The more Sony tweaks it, the more likely it will diverge from the rest of the H.264 offerings. Canon has walked away from it and Pentax should steer well clear of it as well. If one is going to compress, H.264 in MOV or AVI is sufficient without the Sony constraints and are more likely future-proof.

[Aristophanes]

The best way for Pentax to increase market share is to capture a new market, which is why they released the Q. Releasing an FF DSLR will make them compete in the same market as two makers who are rapidly losing market share.

It's not just market share. It's margins. as well.

Any Pentax FF will clearly not be able to increase market share because the demand is simply not there. What can Pentax offer in a FF DSLR that is better than a Nikon D800?

The only thing Pentax achieves by delivering a FF DSLR is retaining more Pentax loyalists. But to be blunt, there's not that many of them. And legacy glass is not up to the resolution and AF comparisons with Canikon FF offerings. So it is doubtful Pentax could compete for even its own loyalists with FF unless the splash is o big (10+ lenses from the get go) and the body is the equivalent of at least the D700.

To get there, Pentax can only justify that approach by pricing the units (bodies and lenses) at a premium as Nikon did with the D3 line. What you lose in not being able to grow market share you gain by charging loyalists more.

That's Pentax's market dilemma.

Or, it can abandon the DSLR format as Sony appears to be doing for either mirrorless and/or SLT. The latter may be something of a kludge to "traditional" SLR design, but it leverages the existing user base. Goodbye OVF (not sure how Sony's A900/850 crowd will feel about that; methinks the A900 will still retain a factory/inventory presence for the next 5 years like the Nikon F6 chugged along, although I suspect we may see the A900 with an upgraded sensor announced--the A950).

With small market share doing both as Sony is doing may simply not be feasible as it re

[maxfield_photo]

However, I would disagree that auto cropping for DA lenses on an FF camera is "working fine" - this would be an extremely suboptimal solution for someone with an FF camera and majority DA lenses.

Then be content with the K-5; it's a great camera. Or if one has bigger aspirations for the future but not the means at present, buy the FF body, and slowly make the transition to (or in some cases back to) 35mm glass. It's a better solution than forcing folks to go "cold turkey". Granted they will need to release some new lenses. Weather seals would be very nice on the old FA designs, but I really don't care whether a lens is screw driven or SDM, it's a bit quieter but I don't notice a real difference in focusing speed. Heck, half my FF glass is manual focus anyway.

[Blue]

Actually, as Panasonic demonstrated with the G3 and GF3, removing EVF and articulating screen can dramatically shrink the size of a camera. And Sony proved that it is possible to make fairly thin camera with articulating screen. Sony is also pretty good at proving how small an APC-C body is without EVF and flash.

The main issue Pentax has is the K mount limitation with regards to sensor distance from mount, but again I think there may be a few creative options that Pentax can explore.

Let's wait for the next Pentax model rather than arguing about what is or is not possible.

However, I would disagree that auto cropping for DA lenses on an FF camera is "working fine" - this would be an extremely suboptimal solution for someone with an FF camera and majority DA lenses.

As for restarting production on FA lenses - yes, but ... not that easy if you want to add SDM to them - will probably require a significant redesign.

Nikon does that with their full frame sensors to allow their DX lenses to be used on the D700. I know a lady here in T. allahassee that added the D700 to here Nikon aps-c set. She already had some ff compatible glass but also some very good DX glass as well.

It won't require that much of a redesign on the optics, only the tube. However, Tokina has shown that it isn't that big a deal.

Granted this example is a DX lens, but it shows the addition of the focus motor in the Tokina version of the 12-24.

Tokina

It would work something like this: The plant manager walks into the mechanical engineers office one morning and hands him a FA* 24/2 and says, "motorize this and put it in a modern weather sealed tube." The next day he walks in and hands them a FA* 85/1.4, and says "motorize this and put it in a modern weather sealed tube."

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Last edited by Blue; 09-09-2011 at 10:01 AM.

[Asahiflex]

Any Pentax FF will clearly not be able to increase market share because the demand is simply not there. What can Pentax offer in a FF DSLR that is better than a Nikon D800?

You know, Aristophanes... If Pentax releases a FF camera within a year (i.e. ultimately at the next Photokina) will you post a new topic in this subforum, publicly offering your apologies to the Pentax community? I promise to do the same if Pentax does not release a FF camera within the same year.

Deal?

[jsherman999]

Nikon does that with their full frame sensors to allow their DX lenses to be used on the D700. I know a lady here in T. allahassee that added the D700 to here Nikon aps-c set. She already had some ff compatible glass but also some very good DX glass as well.

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Yep. I use that feature all the time, mostly with my Sigma 50-150 2.8 on D700. It gives me about 6mp on the target, which is more than enough for an 8x10 print, and truthfully enough for much larger. I do that because that 50-150 HSM II is so lightning fast on the D700, is smaller than a 70-200 2.8, and is a pleasure to shoot.

I turn off auto-crop mode when I use the DX 35 1.8G and just accept some vignetting, which I can remove in post if I want (but rarely do.) That little 35 1.8 has incredible sharpness, allows remarkable subject isolation for the FOV, and really can give a 3-D look on FF.

I would never suggest buying a FF camera to shoot DX/aps-c glass on it, but you don't have to sell off your aps-c glass if you do - particularily if you still plan to shoot aps-c in addition, and especially if your DA lenses actually do cover the FF frame, with some slight vignetting.

But of course the K-1 would be really made for the FA lenses, new and old, and lenses like the DA* 200, DA* 300 and new 100mm macro, which is a FF lens.
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It won't require that much of a redesign on the optics, only the tube. However, Tokina has shown that it isn't that big a deal.

Granted this example is a DX lens, but it shows the addition of the focus motor in the Tokina version of the 12-24.

Tokina

It would work something like this: The plant manager walks into the mechanical engineers office one morning and hands him a FA* 24/2 and says, "motorize this and put it in a modern weather sealed tube." The next day he walks in and hands them a FA* 85/1.4, and says "motorize this and put it in a modern weather sealed tube."

That still could be considered a 'major redesign' from Pentax's perspective... But there are only positives to come from doing so. Imagine a 50-135 2.8 that snaps focus as fast as the Sigma HSM on Nikon, or the Nikon AF-S lenses, with added reliability to boot. Pentax zoom sales would increase, confidence would increase, and Pentax could even re-sell some lenses to current owners (Nikon enjoyed this benefit quite a bit.)

Downside is the 'SDM-II' lenses would probably cost a little bit more. Believe me, it would be worth it.


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[jsherman999]

You know, Aristophanes... If Pentax releases a FF camera within a year (i.e. ultimately at the next Photokina) will you post a new topic in this subforum, publicly offering your apologies to the Pentax community? I promise to do the same if Pentax does not release a FF camera within the same year.

Deal?

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One year to release is going to be tough. Aristophanes may win that bet. I do however suspect we'll see an announcement late next year, maybe at Photokina, for a 2013 release.

Which would mean Ricoh starts giving the green light to several internal projects shortly after they get the keys.


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Last edited by jsherman999; 09-09-2011 at 11:42 AM.

[ManuH]

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One year to release is going to be tough. Aristophanes may win that bet. I do however suspect we'll see an announcement late next year, maybe at Photokina, for a 2013 release.

End of 2012 is quite possible. If Pentax follows its usual schedule we'll see a K-r successor very soon, a K-3 somewhere in the first quarter of 2012. 645D doesn't need an update soon. They can use K-3 electronics to build the FF K-1, just like they did with K-7 / 645D.

But the mirrorless urge could disrupt this easy path.

[uccemebug]

The latest article from Bloomberg: Canon Hanging on to Mirrors Means Opportunity for Sony, Panasonic Cameras - Bloomberg

The final sentence in there might explain what Ricoh has in mind.

“Still, it won’t be too late for them to enter the market after mirrorless cameras become a global trend.”

The speaker meant Canon/Nikon but it applies as well to anyone predicting that global MILC sales will explode as they have in Japan.

[Asahiflex]

One year to release is going to be tough. Aristophanes may win that bet. I do however suspect we'll see an announcement late next year, maybe at Photokina, for a 2013 release.

Which would mean Ricoh starts giving the green light to several internal projects shortly after they get the keys.
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I still stand by my words... I just wished for a more positive approach on the subject. If all beancounters were like Aristophanes, then progress and competition would be nonexistant. After all, Nikon and Canon already have the largest slice of the pie, who the h*ll do Pentax think they are?

BTW, I don't want a FF DSLR by definition... A FF mirrorless is perfectly fine for me too (and maybe even better than a DSLR because I'll then be less limited in my lens selection).

[jsherman999]

I still stand by my words... I just wished for a more positive approach on the subject. If all beancounters were like Aristophanes, then progress and competition would be nonexistant....

Aristophanes seems like a nice enough person, and is not an idiot... But Steve Jobs would have fired him immediately.

BTW, I don't want a FF DSLR by definition... A FF mirrorless is perfectly fine for me too (and maybe even better than a DSLR because I'll then be less limited in my lens selection).

Almost anything Pentax-FF makes me salivate, I'll admit. If it doesn't mount the FA limiteds, though, what's the point? Might as well buy any FF mirrorless or SLT solution from anyone, then, even Sony.


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[falconeye]

One year to release is going to be tough. Aristophanes may win that bet. I do however suspect we'll see an announcement late next year, maybe at Photokina, for a 2013 release.

IMHO, 2012 will be dominated by two events:
1. FF with Sony's "world shaking" 36MP sensor. The A99 is said to actually launch before Photokina 2012.
2. Mirrorless for the masses, making all P&S and penta-mirror entry level SLR users want to upgrade.

Ricoh better not bet on yet another APSC K-3 ...

Therefore, I speculate Pentax will either seize their chance and lauch their own 36MP FF at Photokina 2012, or totally pass out for another round. I.e., I don't see a 2013 offering. Assuming Sony made their FF chip offering to Pentax, Giving green or red light to this project may be one of Ricoh's first decisions to make after Oct., 1.

[Aristophanes]

End of 2012 is quite possible. If Pentax follows its usual schedule we'll see a K-r successor very soon, a K-3 somewhere in the first quarter of 2012. 645D doesn't need an update soon. They can use K-3 electronics to build the FF K-1, just like they did with K-7 / 645D.

But the mirrorless urge could disrupt this easy path.

The mirrorless urge has higher growth potential than the cannibalization inevitability of a FF DSLR.

I just do not see FF sensor prices low enough for Pentax to join the rarified price points of FF. I also suspect they can neither meet AF expectations with the SAFOX system, nor produce enough glass.

A far likelier outcome is APS-C mirrorless and a new mount with modest DSLR revisions.

I'll take the bet. 2012 is premature. Looking at sensor supply I'm nit even sure Sony has the capacity to make more FF sensors than what Nikon and Sony currently demand. To get a 2012 FF release Pentax engineers would almost certainly need to be involved now, if not 6 months ago. Which is about the time Pentax said no FF in the future.

Camera sales are not veering towards FF. Demand is actually weakening. It's a slow turnover product line.

[Christine Tham]

AVCHD is an attempt to take H.264 proprietary. All this so Panasonic could lock you into using their Viera HDTV's and Sony their Blu-Ray tech. it's not comparable in file format as a container to AVI or MOV which adhere to the MPEG and ISO guidelines (and HTML5). AVCHD applies file system constraints designed to funnel software to specific hardware and actually can make integrated H.264 encode/decode designs inapplicable, such as those on newer Intel and ARM chips.

Again, ahem.

AVI is a "proprietary" container originally designed by Microsoft (Windows media player).

MOV is a "proprietary" container originally designed by Apple (Quicktime).

Neither of these two formats have anything to do with HTML5, and both pre-date HTML5 by a good few years.

AVCHD on the other hand uses M2TS is which an "open" container.

I'm not sure why you think M2TS will make "integrated H.264 encode/decode designs inapplicable" - MPEG Transport Stream is just about one of the most widely supported distribution containers out there - used in DVB broadcasts all over the world. It is supported on just about anything I know, and inbuilt into most GPUs and video processors.

[Christine Tham]

Guys, rather than making bets about when Pentax will or won't release an FF camera, why not let Pentax know what you want directly? That way, you can positively influence their future direction and decision making. These days, manufacturers like to "connect" to customers directly via social media like Facebook and they actually respond to feedback.

Earlier this year I told Pentax that I was annoyed Pentax has a pink K-r available in Japan, but there is no pink K-r in Australia.

In response, they told me they will release a pink K-r in Australia. Shortly thereafter, they sent me confirmation that the pink K-r is now available for purchase in shops. That is a pretty direct response to an individual request. That's why I feel guity I ended up not buying a pink K-r.

They also told me if I want to try out a lens and I can't find a shop that stocks it, I can ring them and they can arrange to let me try out a demo model. I ended up borrowing a DA* 50-135 from them, and after that I bought one.