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09-20-2011, 10:09 AM - 3 Likes   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by abacus07 Quote
APS-C is a cash cow that is going to disappear in 5-10 yrs.
No one knows whether APS-C is going to disappear in 5-10 years. If enough people have invested in higher end APS-C lenses, the demand for APS-C could persist for longer than 10 years. Nor does anyone really know at this point how the whole mirrorless thing is going to pan out. The main advantage of these cameras is their small size; but this small size makes them less compelling when used with most SLR lenses and ergonomically challenging for people with large hands. Not everyone wants a small camera, and I suspect that many photo enthusiasts will always prefer an optical viewfinder.

QuoteOriginally posted by detritus Quote
i actually think that legacy lenses is something thats going to do more harm than good for pentax eventually... at this rate, who's gonna buy new lenses?
Swapping out mounts is generally not a good business strategy, as it alienates those who've invested in the abandoned mount. Canon and Minolta were able to get away with it because they were introducing a revolutionary lens-based technology: i.e., auto-focus. If Canon or Minolta users wanted to make use of the new technology, they would have to buy new lenses in any case, so swapping out the mounts was no big deal. But if you swap mounts merely to sell more lenses, you'll likely end up selling less lenses overall. If, in order to have any automatic features, I need to buy all new glass, why wouldn't I just switch to Canon or Nikon? Those brands offer more new lenses, more accessories, better flash system, better AF, better high-end cameras. Since it's precisely the K-mount glass, both new and legacy, that gives me the incentive to put up with Pentax's shortcomings in other areas, if Pentax abandons that mount, I'm taking my business elsewhere.

09-20-2011, 10:21 AM   #137
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APS-C isn't going anywhere. It is the 135 of the digital age. its cost/benefit advantage and ability to keep a DSLR within acceptably sized form factors with all the digital and processing add-ons is entrenched both for the SLR and mirrorless form factors. To go FF with mirrorless, imagine an NEX-7 but 25% larger.

Sony is telling the market that multiple mounts is the future. Canikon are saying the same with their silence on the matter (fear of market cannibalization). Pentax with the Q is sort of stating the same, and this Ricoh semi-announcement is really an announcement of a new, mirrorless mount with a larger than Q sensor, almost certainly APS-C.

I strongly doubt Pentax will abandon the K-mount. I think that is what Ricoh bought. I do think DSLR development will slow considerably and mirrorless will take up that market space in very much the same ways that SLR's and rangefinder's coexist. Will Ricoh/Pentax opt for their own proprietary mount or try to join with Samsung, Nikon, or Sony? That's the burning question.

And you will need new glass to use the new mirrorless. That's the point. That's where the money is.
09-20-2011, 10:34 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
...it's precisely the K-mount glass, both new and legacy, that gives me the incentive to put up with Pentax's shortcomings in other areas, if Pentax abandons that mount, I'm taking my business elsewhere.
I feel the same way. I stick with Pentax and put up with their quirks because of the investment I have in the K-mount. If those lenses became useless and I had to re-buy everything, I would most likely switch systems.
09-20-2011, 10:58 AM   #139
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I would agree that Ricoh sees the value in the K-mount... that is basically the essence of Pentax.

It is however going to be a challenge to create a K-compatible APC sensor sized mirrorless camera because of the register distance of the current K-mount lenses. It's not as though you can just stick an adapter on that increases the register distance, unless the new mount is of a much larger diameter than the current K-mount so as to allow the entire image circle to fall onto the sensor. Creating a compact mirrorless with a LARGER mount seems quite unlikely. So they would almost certainly have to maintain the camera's depth to ensure backward compatibility, which also makes this option very unlikely... I expect APS-C mirrorless cameras to be thinner than current DSLRs. I'm very interested in how Ricoh is going to develop this new MILC so as to maintain backward compatibility.

09-20-2011, 11:12 AM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I feel the same way. I stick with Pentax and put up with their quirks because of the investment I have in the K-mount. If those lenses became useless and I had to re-buy everything, I would most likely switch systems.
I feel the same way. I have too much invested in K-mount lenses to jump ship. Now for a MILC that requires a all new lens system I would be open to any system that offers what I want in a MILC camera. If the Pentax MILC camera can take K-mount lenses without losing any features I will most likely stay with Pentax.

So far none of the MILC cameras had what I wanted in a MILC camera. I did buy my wife a Olympus EPL-2 back in June. It is a nice camera, but not for me.

The Panasonic/Olymus sensor technolgy is not there for me. I got use to the DR of my K-5 at iso 80 and don't want to give it up. The Q sensor is too small. The Sony NEX cameras are too thin and it compromises corner image quality. The Nikon is still an unkown. So so far there is not a MILC that I want to spend my money on but I really want one.
09-20-2011, 11:46 AM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I feel the same way. I stick with Pentax and put up with their quirks because of the investment I have in the K-mount. If those lenses became useless and I had to re-buy everything, I would most likely switch systems.
What a surprise... NOT! I would do the same. But OTOH I'm certain it won't happen... it's suicidal to just get rid of your main source of income, and Ricoh isn't stupid.
Sometimes I feel I'm reading "One thousand way for a company to commit suicide", and not Pentaxforums.
09-20-2011, 11:50 AM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
APS-C isn't going anywhere. It is the 135 of the digital age. its cost/benefit advantage and ability to keep a DSLR within acceptably sized form factors with all the digital and processing add-ons is entrenched both for the SLR and mirrorless form factors. To go FF with mirrorless, imagine an NEX-7 but 25% larger.

Sony is telling the market that multiple mounts is the future. Canikon are saying the same with their silence on the matter (fear of market cannibalization). Pentax with the Q is sort of stating the same, and this Ricoh semi-announcement is really an announcement of a new, mirrorless mount with a larger than Q sensor, almost certainly APS-C.

I strongly doubt Pentax will abandon the K-mount. I think that is what Ricoh bought. I do think DSLR development will slow considerably and mirrorless will take up that market space in very much the same ways that SLR's and rangefinder's coexist. Will Ricoh/Pentax opt for their own proprietary mount or try to join with Samsung, Nikon, or Sony? That's the burning question.

And you will need new glass to use the new mirrorless. That's the point. That's where the money is.
Well stated and thought out!

OLD THINKING:
A camera company should have only one mount and dozens of varying lens options.

NEW THINKING:
The number of lens mounts doesn't matter. (Once designed, there is no ongoing expense with them)

Make lots of lens options for the primary lens mount, but for the other less used mounts, a few lenses is all that is needed, e.g. Sony only has a small AF zoom and one AF prime for their compact NEX series. Fuji has one fixed lens for their x100 lens "mount"
09-20-2011, 12:18 PM   #143
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Personally, I suspect that they are actually far further down the design line then we are led to believe. It is highly unlikely Pentax have just been sitting doing nothing for the last few months and. Ricoh would have been well aware of the forthcoming Q.

To suggest they will only start development after the takeover date would put them possibly years behind everyone else, lets face it to design a whole new camera and system of lenses is not exactly an overnight process. To join the party many years after everyone else (No I dont believe Canikon dont have things up their sleeves) would put them so far out of the picture as to not be in it at all.

And theres still this rumour of a new launch in October yet.....

Woody

09-20-2011, 01:20 PM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I do think DSLR development will slow considerably
Don't think so, most advancement these day are archived with the sensor and the processing.
If they trully will use an APS-C sensor for there CSC, why can't they use the same senor for the DSLR aswell?
Hell they could even used all of the electronics, just add an mirror, viewfinder and phase-af sensor and done.

They only problem i see is lens range.
I'm really looking forward for some high quality glass for the k-mount, the last few years have been very disappointing.
Thinking of just getting the FA limiteds instead and just stop hoping.
09-20-2011, 01:30 PM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Well stated and thought out!

OLD THINKING:
A camera company should have only one mount and dozens of varying lens options.

NEW THINKING:
The number of lens mounts doesn't matter. (Once designed, there is no ongoing expense with them)
Then Pentax was thinking "new" in 1984-1985, when they had 4 mounts for a short period (K, Auto 110, 67 and 645)

(so if they now introduce a fourth mount again, it's not without precedence)
09-20-2011, 01:51 PM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
If, in order to have any automatic features, I need to buy all new glass, why wouldn't I just switch to Canon or Nikon? Those brands offer more new lenses, more accessories, better flash system, better AF, better high-end cameras. Since it's precisely the K-mount glass, both new and legacy, that gives me the incentive to put up with Pentax's shortcomings in other areas, if Pentax abandons that mount, I'm taking my business elsewhere.
Couldn't have put it better. When the time came for me to make the transition to digital, the thought that my old film lenses would still have some value kept me with the brand. When you buy Pentax, you're buying continuity. I hope that Ricoh realizes that is one of the strengths of the brand.
09-20-2011, 01:53 PM   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
Thinking of just getting the FA limiteds instead and just stop hoping.
Don't forget the Voigtlander and Zeiss lenses in K mount.
09-20-2011, 02:04 PM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
So another mirrorless is on its way- great. Hope that this doesn't take away R&D from the K lineup.
+1 on that. I hope the mirroless turns out to be a module for the GXR.

QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Then Pentax was thinking "new" in 1984-1985, when they had 4 mounts for a short period (K, Auto 110, 67 and 645)

(so if they now introduce a fourth mount again, it's not without precedence)
The 67 and 645 were totally different ball games, i.e. medium format. They still have the 645 mount anyway.
09-20-2011, 02:16 PM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Well stated and thought out!

OLD THINKING:
A camera company should have only one mount and dozens of varying lens options.

NEW THINKING:
The number of lens mounts doesn't matter. (Once designed, there is no ongoing expense with them)

Make lots of lens options for the primary lens mount, but for the other less used mounts, a few lenses is all that is needed, e.g. Sony only has a small AF zoom and one AF prime for their compact NEX series. Fuji has one fixed lens for their x100 lens "mount"

DIFFERENT THINKING:

The number of lens mounts matters a great deal if each mount requires a set of unique lenses - more R&D time and money for more models with fewer lenses sold per model. Drives up unit cost.

Buyers will always demand more lens options. This forum is evidence. It becomes a competitive necessity at some point. A few lenses will almost certainly need to become quite a few lenses.

If (perhaps) two mounts could share lenses with adapters:
- Still have greater manufacturing costs to product more unique models, even if they differ only in mount. Probably the reason we cannot get all Sigma/Tokina/Tamron glass in Pentax mount.
- Still have greater cost and confusion from stocking, distributing, and repairing more unique items of inventory. CRIS will now wait nine months for parts from Japan (or Vietnam via Japan).
- Must make compromises to make one lens model work with two bodies of different size, e.g., lens is larger/heavier than needed for the smaller body.

We may be on the train to an increasing number of mounts. This drives unit costs up and the smaller players struggle to compete with the larger players who amortize the extra work over a much larger user base.
09-20-2011, 05:19 PM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
APS-C isn't going anywhere. It is the 135 of the digital age. its cost/benefit advantage and ability to keep a DSLR within acceptably sized form factors with all the digital and processing add-ons is entrenched both for the SLR and mirrorless form factors. To go FF with mirrorless, imagine an NEX-7 but 25% larger.

Sony is telling the market that multiple mounts is the future. Canikon are saying the same with their silence on the matter (fear of market cannibalization). Pentax with the Q is sort of stating the same, and this Ricoh semi-announcement is really an announcement of a new, mirrorless mount with a larger than Q sensor, almost certainly APS-C.

I strongly doubt Pentax will abandon the K-mount. I think that is what Ricoh bought. I do think DSLR development will slow considerably and mirrorless will take up that market space in very much the same ways that SLR's and rangefinder's coexist. Will Ricoh/Pentax opt for their own proprietary mount or try to join with Samsung, Nikon, or Sony? That's the burning question.

And you will need new glass to use the new mirrorless. That's the point. That's where the money is.
Imo a DSLR is an acceptably sized form factor because it was limited by the current technology. And technology will continue to change the digital camera world. 10-15 yrs ago everybody was saying that film cameras would always be the top tier because a DSLR couldn't possibly compete. It turns out that a DSLR can and in someways has surpassed them with the other features that are now possible (like iso performance). Expect the same thing to happen with the OVF argument. EVF's (the biggest complaint) at some point will surpass the OVF when the additional functionality is considered.

TBH the most significant arguments for K mount APSC surviving long term are made by those that are heavily invested in it. Pentax won't completely abandon it but the money is going to be spent on attracting new customers. I can see Pentax continuing to develop new bodies since most of that is software and sensor improvement that will be developed regardless of product line. But you can forget about new lenses. And at some point the existing users will migrate also. Maybe they migrate to a different brand in 5-10 years but if Pentax is going to survive it will be because they released the best possible mirrorless product instead of one full of compromises to keep the Kmount. note - I will be very sad to see K mount go.

Just because a camera is significantly smaller and lighter doesn't mean that it has to be NEX sized. I didn't like the NEX in my hands. But the Panasonic felt great so it's not impossible to design a smaller camera with a good grip. And the biggest benefits are reduced weight and moving the lens mount rearward which shrinks the longest dimension of the camera (the lens). The lens itself probably won't be that much smaller.
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