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09-28-2011, 03:53 AM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Unless there is a better system for electronic circuitry than a printed circuit board it is not possible, at least not from Pentax.

Look at the size of the full-featured NEX-7. Mirrorless, APS-C and big. Even getting rid of the mirror cannot make up for the electronic support systems.
I wouldn't say it's big:
Size Comparison: NEX7 - GF1 - GH1: Micro Four Thirds Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review

09-28-2011, 04:44 AM - 2 Likes   #227
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I'm having trouble understanding this popularity of smaller, but still bulky cameras.

When I attach a 40mm ltd to my K5, it easily fits in the pocket of my jacket, but not in the pocket of my jeans. When I do the same with a (e.g.) a Nex, it still only fits in my jacket pockets. No difference. Yes, the nex is somewhat smaller, but still bulky.

Now, when I attach a larger sized lens to any of the two systems, or when I want to carry extra lenses, I'm going to need a bag. No difference there either.

So, why sacrifice image quality (smaller sensors), a OVF and stability (gripping) for only a small size reduction, that still doesn't give you more freedom???

And why not just use the extra generated space with usefull things?
- Standard built-in GPS?
- EVF
- An internal solid state harddrive?
- Passive or even active cooling? (We all know certain camera's would operate better.)
- Extra battery compartment?
- WIFI or even mobile internet connectivity?

And those are only the simple things I can come up with, who knows what more experienced and pro's can come up with?
09-28-2011, 04:53 AM   #228
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I'd like a square sensor and an EVF so that one could choose a frame format and see it in the EVF. This would allow for almost any shaped output. Perhaps the shutter could also be done away with and have an on/off exposure tap into the sensor. That would just be an electronic switch that has no moving parts at all and no mirror either so the frame rate could be as fast as the buffer could record.

Last edited by bossa; 09-28-2011 at 05:16 AM.
09-28-2011, 05:33 AM   #229
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Clavius: size-wise, there is a huge gap between my K5+30/1.4 combo and the diminutive NX100+30/2 pack.
Ok, it still doesn't fit in my pocket, but at least it can find a place in my wife's bag, and I can lug it around my neck all day long without resenting the damn thing...

I guess the thing is that they are for different uses...

09-28-2011, 09:51 AM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by dlacouture Quote
Clavius: size-wise, there is a huge gap between my K5+30/1.4 combo and the diminutive NX100+30/2 pack.
Ok, it still doesn't fit in my pocket, but at least it can find a place in my wife's bag, and I can lug it around my neck all day long without resenting the damn thing...

I guess the thing is that they are for different uses...
Yeah, it doesn't have to fit in a pants pocket to realize a size advantage. For example, neither my K20D + DA 15ltd nor my D90 + Tokina 12-24 f4 can fit in a pants pocket , but they aren't effectively 'equal' either because my K20D combo can fit in my smallest camera bag, and can fit in the zipper pocket of my down coat - the D90 + 12-24 combo can't quite fit into either of those. Thus, K20D + 15ltd comes with me more places.

A NEX or other mirrorless with a small pancake lens for example would realize that size advantage even more - even though it doesn't fit into a pants pocket.

It depends on personal usage also. If you're going out on some jaunt that requires 6-7 lenses and maybe a tripod, the size of the body in the bag may not make much difference





.
09-28-2011, 10:26 AM - 1 Like   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
If you're going out on some jaunt that requires 6-7 lenses and maybe a tripod, the size of the body in the bag may not make much difference.
Except that you can use a smaller tripod to good effect with a MILC (depending on lenses). Might make the difference between bringing the tripod or leaving it home.
09-28-2011, 11:21 AM   #232
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And also those of us with disabilities of one type or another might well prefer a lighter camera. Of course controls should be bigger and more obvious than what most manufacturers provide, no matter what size the body.

And a touchscreen is pure ergonomic evil.
09-28-2011, 11:39 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
I'd like a square sensor and an EVF so that one could choose a frame format and see it in the EVF. This would allow for almost any shaped output. Perhaps the shutter could also be done away with and have an on/off exposure tap into the sensor. That would just be an electronic switch that has no moving parts at all and no mirror either so the frame rate could be as fast as the buffer could record.
I'd love to see a big square sensor, one that could utilize the image circle of a 135/FF lens (43mm diameter). That sensor would have 1.5x the area of an FF sensor. With the rejection rates of larger sensors, that will probably cost rather more than 1.5x the price of the smaller. A square sensor that captures an APS-C image circle (~30mm diameter) would likewise be 1.5x the area of an APS-C sensor, and will cost rather more than 1.5x as much.

I suspect that unless big-sensor yields are MUCH improved at MUCH lower cost, no camera maker is going to 'waste' that much silicon real estate and money. Square formats are fine for film but I just don't see them happening on digital.

09-28-2011, 11:50 AM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
I'd love to see a big square sensor, one that could utilize the image circle of a 135/FF lens (43mm diameter). That sensor would have 1.5x the area of an FF sensor.
7% bigger area, not 50%
09-28-2011, 11:55 AM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Well it's not unheard of. Any superzoom P&S like the Panasonic TZ3 has a pretty radical collapsing zoom lens. In that Panny's case it's a 10x, 28-300mm equiv.

I think these folks are talking about a slightly larger, better quality collapsing zoom with only maybe 2x or 3x.
I have a couple of the TZ/ZS series and get that idea; I like it a lot. But once the sensor (and therefore lens) start getting big, like APS-C as referenced, I'm not sure that the design model will still produce a very small device. If we add the mechanics to permit a series of collapsible primes, it gets hard to envision.

I'm not debating the goal - l like my Panny's a lot. In fact, I'd love a TZ with the Q sensor and image processor HW/SW. But I'm skeptical it can scale to M43 or APS-C sensors and lenses but still provide a unit that's much smaller overall than existing M43 and Pentax APS-C
09-28-2011, 12:46 PM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by Supernaut Quote
7% bigger area, not 50%
Duh... yeah, you're right. I shoulda done the geometry. A 24x36mm rectangle (862 mm^2) and a 30x30mm square (924 mm^2) both fit in that 43mm diameter image circle. Why was I thinking a 36x36mm square? Duh...

[/me blames the voices in /me head for misleading /me]

OK then, the yield rate for a larger sensor (FFS?) might not be that much worse than the smaller (FFR?), so it shouldn't cost a helluva lot more. Can we has square sensorz now?
09-28-2011, 01:09 PM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by glanglois Quote
I'm struggling to picture this: a small body that's large enough that zooms and primes collapse into it. Is this something like the TARDIS? Does Ricoh have the manufacturing chops to mass-produce tesseracts?

I suspect I missed the point here someplace, gazonk. Would you please try it again or PM me?
The point was just that if you make a mirrorless camera with a K-mount, you'd have a lot of room between the mount and the sensor... Which could be used for lenses that extend far behind the mount or collapsible lenses.
09-28-2011, 02:02 PM   #238
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OK, thanks. The body stays roughly the same size but some lenses no longer "stick out" in front. Got it.
09-29-2011, 12:16 PM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
The point was just that if you make a mirrorless camera with a K-mount, you'd have a lot of room between the mount and the sensor... Which could be used for lenses that extend far behind the mount or collapsible lenses.
As much as I like my pocket super zooms, I'm not sure I'd want lenses that are as wobbly as they are. I'd like to see how you'd collapse a large aperture prime like the FA77. What would you compromise to do that?
09-29-2011, 01:06 PM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by wjjstu Quote
As much as I like my pocket super zooms, I'm not sure I'd want lenses that are as wobbly as they are. I'd like to see how you'd collapse a large aperture prime like the FA77. What would you compromise to do that?
I wouldn't want to do that. I was mainly thinking of two cases: a collapsible compact kit zoom, and non-retro focus wa lenses that could extend behind the mount.
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