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09-18-2011, 02:58 PM   #61
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Ricoh just announced a new mount. That's what this boils down to. The rest was brand fluff.

It has to be a new mount because technically the k-mount cannot work with a shorter register distance. It's a 135 mount with a crop sensor in 2011. If you want a MILC you need a new mount as all the other companies realize.

K-mount is tied to the SLR; lives and dies by it. An adapter will work but with performance and cost penalties. Companies dislike them because it is easier to sell two separate lines.

New mount = new revenue stream. The SLR cannot grow market share without going towards all commodity pricing (APS-C nearly there now). But that does not mean the current SLR format is going away. There is a tendency for readers here to assume the market is binary. It is not.

09-18-2011, 03:01 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Try an MFT camera with a K adapter. Olympus and Panasonic have been giving us this option for years.
No AF means extremely limited sales. These adapters are a sub-sub-sub hobby mostly relegated to the eBay distribution channel. Sales are so small for them they don't even register with market data.
09-18-2011, 03:10 PM   #63
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I think this is a great idea. To collapse something to make a more compact form is the most intuitive way. I am sure there are already enough successful ergonomic ideas to learn from by pentax designers.

They can even make the collapse the on/off switch, which has been used in many cellphone/point and shot DC. You push a key, the lens pop out and you can shoot immediately. When you want to turn it off, you push the lens together with the K-mount adapter partially into the body and also squeeze a spring inside, so the next you can pop the lens out without any extra force. I think this is more feasible engineeringly than the idea of adding an extra mirror in the body to make the body thinner, which has been proposed in this forum.

If Ricoh wants to make the new pentax mirrorless successful, they must somehow take advantage of the existing limited primes, rather than make any new adapter or new lens recently



QuoteOriginally posted by Noam Quote
Why not? The main size advantage of a mirrorless camera is the reduction of sensor-to-mount depth (and consequent potential reduction in lens size), not so much the mount diameter.

Hence my suggestion: It can be collapsible - allowing for two different sensor-to-mount distances - one for new MIRC-exclusive lenses and one for legacy K-mount lenses (although this is just a wild thought. Probably you're right and they won't do this).
09-18-2011, 03:53 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by feishui Quote
If Ricoh wants to make the new pentax mirrorless successful, they must somehow take advantage of the existing limited primes, rather than make any new adapter or new lens recently
Not going to happen. The primes were designed for a long register distance. To get that distance you need an adapter which will neither be small nor inexpensive. Once you go down that path, a manufacturer is actually better off making two camera bodies for different lenses than one body for multiple types of lenses.

A collapsible in-body adapter frankly, is silly. It would have to be so thick it would rival in dimensions the register distance existing already in the DSLRs. Have you ever used an FA*24 on a K-x? For that glass (and many others) you need some physically large structure to support the optics. This is one of the design reasons why the SLR became the dominant upper-end form factor for cameras: the mirror box needed room and that room could be dual-purpose for large glass mounts. SLR's became the telephoto masters as a result.

The whole point of mirrorless is NOT to make the body smaller per se. It's to make the whole system smaller. That includes the optics. So if you go mirrorless, by definition you're moving from the SLR k-mount to a new mount entirely.

My sense from the Ricoh announcement is that they'll be doing their version of e-mount. APS-C to start, FF when (if) sensor supply gets to the right place. K-mount was not mention, so assume the status quo, albeit with much slower development.

09-18-2011, 04:38 PM   #65
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For those limited primes, I don't think physically large support structure is indeed needed for their limited size and weight. Pentax can clearly claim that certain lenses are not compatible with this mirrorless. Pentax don't have many big lenses on the market anyways ... I also don't think Pentax need to make these lens much smaller to fit the mirrorless concept. These lenses are so compact that they are comparable to many 43 system lenses.

Pentax is a quite small company. However, as previous mentioned, other much larger companies only have 1 or 2 adapter systems, but pentax has 645, K and Q already. How many lenses do you think pentax can design for each of 4 different systems?
For such a limited market with so many strong competitors, one more adapter and lens system will not save pentax. It will kill pentax.

Agreed that current Kmount was designed for 35 and some space is wasted in an APS. but who said in the "pop-out" adapter, this extra space can't be used for the pop-out mechanism?



QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Not going to happen. The primes were designed for a long register distance. To get that distance you need an adapter which will neither be small nor inexpensive. Once you go down that path, a manufacturer is actually better off making two camera bodies for different lenses than one body for multiple types of lenses.

A collapsible in-body adapter frankly, is silly. It would have to be so thick it would rival in dimensions the register distance existing already in the DSLRs. Have you ever used an FA*24 on a K-x? For that glass (and many others) you need some physically large structure to support the optics. This is one of the design reasons why the SLR became the dominant upper-end form factor for cameras: the mirror box needed room and that room could be dual-purpose for large glass mounts. SLR's became the telephoto masters as a result.

The whole point of mirrorless is NOT to make the body smaller per se. It's to make the whole system smaller. That includes the optics. So if you go mirrorless, by definition you're moving from the SLR k-mount to a new mount entirely.

My sense from the Ricoh announcement is that they'll be doing their version of e-mount. APS-C to start, FF when (if) sensor supply gets to the right place. K-mount was not mention, so assume the status quo, albeit with much slower development.

Last edited by feishui; 09-18-2011 at 04:58 PM.
09-18-2011, 04:38 PM   #66
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"On a par with.." That's the key here. I don't see how trashing your entire lens range for a new mount alone can help reach that target.

I predict a modular camera with interchangable sensor backs that can use either legacy or modern lenses when combined with a mount module. If they intend to compete with Canon & Nikon then they aren't going to stay with the smaller sensor 'only'. The possibilities are huge.
09-18-2011, 04:48 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Noam Quote
Why not? The main size advantage of a mirrorless camera is the reduction of sensor-to-mount depth (and consequent potential reduction in lens size), not so much the mount diameter.

Hence my suggestion: It can be collapsible - allowing for two different sensor-to-mount distances - one for new MIRC-exclusive lenses and one for legacy K-mount lenses (although this is just a wild thought. Probably you're right and they won't do this).
I don't understand why this silly suggestion keeps coming up. I wouldn't want to muck around with something that fragile.

Besides, the FA Limited lenses could certainly use an update with seals and quick shift. Who doesn't want to buy new lenses?
09-18-2011, 05:07 PM   #68
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Maybe the NX mount? Samsung has a nice adapter for K mount lenses that even has an aperture control for DA lenses. I haven't got one yet, but I do have an nx10 and usually just use the 30mm.
Samsung ED-MA9NXK K-Mount Adapter for NX10 Digital ED-MA9NXK B&H

09-18-2011, 05:17 PM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by RioRico Quote
QuoteQuote: Ricoh Co. is considering fully entering the mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera market in a bid to boost its digital camera operations, informed sources told Jiji Press Saturday. A new mirrorless camera will be developed by Pentax Imaging Systems Co., which the Japanese office equipment maker will acquire on Oct. 1 to take over the Pentax brand, the sources said. Mirrorless interchangeable-lens cameras, which are smaller and lighter than conventional single-lens reflex cameras, attract a wide range of consumers including young women. A super compact mirrorless camera was rolled out under the Pentax brand in late August. But it was rather designed for beginners with a small image sensor, which converts light captured through lens into an electronic signal. Equipped with a larger sensor, the new model will allow for a wide variety of photo styles, such as making out-of-focus areas in a shot much more blurry, the sources said.

Wow, it converts light captured through [the] lens into an electronic signal? Really!?

What journalism school did this guy flunk out of?

Last edited by maxfield_photo; 09-18-2011 at 05:31 PM.
09-18-2011, 05:24 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I don't believe its possible to cool a large sensor very easily when its mounted for SR. Thats probably why Sony mounted the NEX sensor solidly to the back of the camera - i.e. better heat transfer
It's an engineering issue. Don't assume that they cannot overcome this issue or that is so problematic.

QuoteOriginally posted by borno Quote
Maybe the NX mount?
No the better bet would be the E-mount if they absolutely have to use one's other mount. They would be like the Panasonic-Olympus alliance. If they can make an SLT adapter will full AE/AF capabilities even better.

But most probably they will produce their own mount, hopefully a micro K with a good adapter allowing at least AE but probably not AF.
09-18-2011, 05:43 PM   #71
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What's wrong with a collapsible thing? There are tons of collapsible point-and-shoot. Many current DSLR lenses are collapsible, too, so as most tripods.

BTW, I don't want to buy new lenses, unless they have way better IQ than the current lineup.

QuoteOriginally posted by wjjstu Quote
I don't understand why this silly suggestion keeps coming up. I wouldn't want to muck around with something that fragile.

Besides, the FA Limited lenses could certainly use an update with seals and quick shift. Who doesn't want to buy new lenses?
09-18-2011, 06:22 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by feishui Quote
BTW, I don't want to buy new lenses, unless they have way better IQ than the current lineup.
And that's the problem sentiment.

No new lens purchases means no new revenue for Pentax. It's the glass, not the bodies where the $$$ is made, unless you want Nikon D3x pricing.

Those who whine for a new body (MILC, FF) but do not want to pony up for new glass are precisely the customers Pentax doesn't want.

Last edited by Aristophanes; 09-18-2011 at 08:19 PM.
09-18-2011, 06:54 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
And that's the problem sentiment.

No new lens purchases means no new revenue for Pentax. It's the glass, not the bodies where the $$$ is made, unless you want Nikon D3x pricing.

Those who whine for a new body (MILC, FF) but do not ant to pony up for new glass are precisely the customers Pentax doesn't want.
Maybe pentax doesn't like me Anyway when I said I am not going to buy new lenses I meant I won't buy pentax lenses for another mount.

But if they don't somehow manage to design some great new bodies, they won't be able to expand their very limited customer group to "par with Nikon Corp". They may even can't keep current customers like me. Then how do they sell more lenses? If they have a good K compatible mirrorless, I may try to fill my bag with several more lenses I don't have yet. But for right now, I don't even know if I will stay with pentax for much longer. At least I won't invest too much on its lenses right now.
On the other hand, I am a little skeptical that lenses are the major source of their income. If yes, then why pentax discontinued so many great legacy lenses?

Last edited by feishui; 09-18-2011 at 07:02 PM.
09-18-2011, 07:15 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by feishui Quote
Maybe pentax doesn't like me Anyway when I said I am not going to buy new lenses I meant I won't buy pentax lenses for another mount.

But if they don't somehow manage to design some great new bodies, they won't be able to expand their very limited customer group to "par with Nikon Corp". They may even can't keep current customers like me. Then how do they sell more lenses? If they have a good K compatible mirrorless, I may try to fill my bag with several more lenses I don't have yet. But for right now, I don't even know if I will stay with pentax for much longer. At least I won't invest too much on its lenses right now.
On the other hand, I am a little skeptical that lenses are the major source of their income. If yes, then why pentax discontinued so many great legacy lenses?
Because it is very expensive to maintain production for a huge catalogue that doesn't sell well.

they have to trim the herd and focus on the DA series (and to a lesser extent, the FA LTDs).

I agree that lenses makes more money than bodies. say what you like but if pentax / ricoh had to pander to legacy users who would never buy new lenses, and are happy to use 20 year old smc k and a lenses, they'll be screwed.

There's a limit to what a company can and should do for legacy users.

Of course, leaving legacy users high and dry is not pleasant. but the buck must stop somewhere and companies need to make money and grow.
09-18-2011, 07:53 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Ricoh just announced a new mount. That's what this boils down to. The rest was brand fluff.

It has to be a new mount because technically the k-mount cannot work with a shorter register distance. It's a 135 mount with a crop sensor in 2011. If you want a MILC you need a new mount as all the other companies realize.
It could very well be a MILC 135 mount with a full frame sensor, leaving Q to compete for chic market.
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