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09-20-2011, 03:45 AM   #121
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I agree with the previous post. If the K-? will address the AF which is a huge deal to me. Then screw lenses which I have. It will breath new life in these lenses. The 7D just smokes the K-5 in AF. It just cannot handle fast lenses and fast action. That combo just doesn't work with Pentax.
I now just shoot and don't worry about the AF. With the K-5 it was a hit or miss.
I also agree the ergonomics are the best I have ever used. In the K-5. Just amazing control at fingertip.

09-20-2011, 05:09 AM   #122
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The Pentax PDAF is a generation or two behind Nikon and Canon. It is the weak link in the system with so many dependent on AF. I find it OK for my needs, but when compared to a real pro camera, it doesn't stand up.

My point was that the AF systems of Canikon are more comprehensive in part because they are dimensionally larger and there is more componentry. PDAF is a mature technology that can be lightning fast, but already at only a few pixels per strip or sensor, the only way to make it on par with Canikon is to add more sensors.

So we have the irony of Pentaxians wanting smaller systems but better, faster, AF, which are mutually exclusive demands. It's classic design economics: in order to get more of x you need to give up some of y.
09-20-2011, 05:23 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
All achievable, but are you willing to sacrifice a modestly larger body for this?
Yes, definitely. I think the few mm this would add to the height of a K-5 would be handy. I do not have extraordinarily large hands but squeezing the pinky on to the grip of a K-5 is just ever so slightly difficult. A little bit more room here, would be welcome by me.

The weight shouldn't change significantly which, AFAIC, is the main thing.

QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
The D7000 successor will be matched by the K-r successor me thinks, and the K-5 successor should be an even more refined flagship.
Highly unlikely, I'd say.
09-20-2011, 06:01 AM - 1 Like   #124
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Amazes me that so much is being read into such a weak press release and that there's so much speculation being discussed with apparent certainty.

Also amazes me that people forget this audience is not representative of 'the market'. The mass market is not the people on this forum, it's the people who bought a Rebel because they saw a review of it in a tech magazine or because they thought it would make them a better photographer. They buy their cameras in high street electrical retailers or high street camera stores staffed by people who don't really know what they're talking about.

When did you last see someone with an entry level dSLR using a second lens? Okay, facetious question, but you get my point. I know many friends who have bought dSLRs over the last few years - 2 of them bought EOS Rebels (one sold his, now uses his HTC phone, the other hasn't a clue how to use it), one bought a D80 and 2 lenses (since left to gather since being replaced with a Lumix TZ20), one bought a K10D (kit lens, later adding a 43/1.9).

So it's all well and good saying the margin being in the lenses, but how many people actually buy them? And I'm talking the mass market, not people on forums or pros.

People talk about Pentax being able to ditch the K-mount because they don't have such a large installed base. In that case, why would I go to Pentax over a) Olympus and Panasonic who were first to market, have a useful lens line-up and proven products, b) Sony who have the most recognisable brand in the shops where the mass market buy these things, or c) Canon/Nikon, who have the biggest brands in the photography community?

I don't see why Ricoh/Pentax would be design their mirrorless product around minimal size - that's exactly what the Q is for. More likely, I think they would try to minimize the size of a K-mount body (look how they got the KX down to the MX) to retain the K-mount.

I think it is inconceivable they would introduce another mount to either replace or augment the K.

09-20-2011, 06:43 AM - 2 Likes   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by fast50 Quote
I don't see why Ricoh/Pentax would be design their mirrorless product around minimal size - that's exactly what the Q is for. More likely, I think they would try to minimize the size of a K-mount body (look how they got the KX down to the MX) to retain the K-mount.

I think it is inconceivable they would introduce another mount to either replace or augment the K.
Maybe one way for Pentax to be different would be to introduce a FF MILC camera with regular K-mount. With an EVF and a high MP count FF sensor (at least 30mp!), they could seamlessly integrate existing DA lenses (they could even specify individual crops for them - so that those lenses that have larger image circles could get any suitable crop between 1.5x and 1.0x) and thus have a full lens lineup for the new camera immediately while they renew their FF lens offerings.

But such a camera may look very old-fashioned the day Sony introduces FF NEX models...
09-20-2011, 07:19 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
APS-C is still where the money is. Low cost inputs and high volume outputs = profits amongst earthquakes and what is probably a nascent worldwide economic depression.

All those DA 15/21/35/40/70/16-50/50-135/60-250/10-17 buyers need a home and the magic price point is sub-$1,500. I don't see FF getting there for 4-5 years, and I certainly don't see Pentax leading the charge.
APS-C is a cash cow that is going to disappear in 5-10 yrs. Pentax should milk it for all it's worth but mirrorless is where the market is headed and Pentax better get in the game with a great product. Or else Pentax will be gone as Jay mentions.

I used to think that K mount mirrorless was the way to go but now I'm completely convinced that it's a terrible idea. It just doesn't make sense to design a new camera around a significantly larger than necessary mount. Believe it or not but people do want smaller, lighter cameras. And believe it or not but SLR's were quite small back in the day. I'm just hoping that there is at least an auto aperture adapter available.
09-20-2011, 07:32 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by fast50 Quote
Amazes me that so much is being read into such a weak press release and that there's so much speculation being discussed with apparent certainty.
Lol, I don't know why you are surprised about that! This is a forum after all (i.e., a place for talking about every related subject under the sun), plus any ol' excuse to guess what's next always seems to be a hot topic.


QuoteOriginally posted by abacus07 Quote
I used to think that K mount mirrorless was the way to go but now I'm completely convinced that it's a terrible idea. It just doesn't make sense to design a new camera around a significantly larger than necessary mount. Believe it or not but people do want smaller, lighter cameras. And believe it or not but SLR's were quite small back in the day. I'm just hoping that there is at least an auto aperture adapter available.
How much smaller can a lens be if sensor size isn't reduced too? And not everyone agrees with you that smaller is better. As I mentioned earlier, I don't like cameras that I can't grip properly with both hands, or that or are so small my fingers, hands and face are interfering with each other when I try to use controls. What appeals to me most about mirrorless is a camera that involves less internal movement and is lighter.
09-20-2011, 08:35 AM - 2 Likes   #128
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645D isn't an upgrade option for Pentax users though, the K-mount ends at the K-5 at the moment. And the 645D is slower than my 300 K-x, with a smaller ISO range. It's an epic camera that annihilates smaller cameras yeah, but it's only useful for specific situations.

I want the prospect of a super high end FF K-mount camera. Don't ditch the K-mount. Entice newbies in with the already amazing cheap cameras like the K-x (as happened to me), hook them with the amazing legacy lenses for peanuts, and then if they go pro, provide for them with proper upgrade options. I see the ability to natively use the relatively cheap old K/M/A mount lenses that are beloved by everyone as a good reason for going with Pentax. New Digital Rebel equivalent Pentax users can fuel their brand allegiance by buying cheap old MF lenses off eBay and falling in love with them, to realise that Pentax have been in the business for years and make some absolutely stunning lenses.

So many film photographers have a soft spot for old MF Pentax cameras. Play to that to hook new users, but offer a D3s destroying camera for the top end.

09-20-2011, 08:38 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by les3547 Quote
Lol, I don't know why you are surprised about that! This is a forum after all (i.e., a place for talking about every related subject under the sun), plus any ol' excuse to guess what's next always seems to be a hot topic.




How much smaller can a lens be if sensor size isn't reduced too? And not everyone agrees with you that smaller is better. As I mentioned earlier, I don't like cameras that I can't grip properly with both hands, or that or are so small my fingers, hands and face are interfering with each other when I try to use controls. What appeals to me most about mirrorless is a camera that involves less internal movement and is lighter.
Would a landscape grip accessory for a MILC K-mount camera sized like the old Pentax SLRs be an option? You could stick the grip on for better ergonomics, or remove it for when lighter and smaller is paramount.

Similar to the Pentax 6x7?

Last edited by Mareket; 09-20-2011 at 08:39 AM. Reason: added final line
09-20-2011, 08:51 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mareket Quote
Would a landscape grip accessory for a MILC K-mount camera sized like the old Pentax SLRs be an option? You could stick the grip on for better ergonomics, or remove it for when lighter and smaller is paramount.

Similar to the Pentax 6x7?
The grip could even be made of modern lightweight materials - so those who want big, but light, would be satisfied!
09-20-2011, 08:57 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mareket Quote
I want the prospect of a super high end FF K-mount camera. Don't ditch the K-mount. Entice newbies in with the already amazing cheap cameras like the K-x (as happened to me), hook them with the amazing legacy lenses for peanuts, and then if they go pro, provide for them with proper upgrade options. I see the ability to natively use the relatively cheap old K/M/A mount lenses that are beloved by everyone as a good reason for going with Pentax. New Digital Rebel equivalent Pentax users can fuel their brand allegiance by buying cheap old MF lenses off eBay and falling in love with them, to realise that Pentax have been in the business for years and make some absolutely stunning lenses.
i actually think that legacy lenses is something thats going to do more harm than good for pentax eventually... at this rate, who's gonna buy new lenses?

its only fun to play with old lenses up to a point. i have a few good ones myself and i do use them from time to time. but i hope for pentax to be a forward looking brand with a solid line of CURRENT products, not legacy products.
09-20-2011, 09:13 AM   #132
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^^ +1@detritus, agreed. The way to do it would be to tie some functionality to the lens used. Ie focus bracketing but only using a superDuper megaDA lens. The functionalty somehow wouldn't be enabled otherwise. Already happens to some extent ie CA correction.
09-20-2011, 09:21 AM   #133
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A glorious K-mount tier exists just over the horizon...

QuoteOriginally posted by abacus07 Quote
APS-C is a cash cow that is going to disappear in 5-10 yrs. Pentax should milk it for all it's worth but mirrorless is where the market is headed and Pentax better get in the game with a great product. Or else Pentax will be gone as Jay mentions.

True, but keep in mind that K-mount is a very valuable asset that Ricoh's purchased. To keep K-mount viable, a FF DSLR is probably required - because for the foreseeable future, there will be a stable market for an upper-end, OVF'd super-fast phase-detect medium-to-large sized body (relative to mirrorless sizes) for shooting the fun and sometimes necessary high-perf stuff. To keep those margin-rich bodies distinct from the mirrorless tiers.. It needs to be FF.

If Pentax doesn't get back in that tier... K-mount itself could potentially whither and die pretty easily. And we'd be left with Q, and whatever other MILC Pentax wants us to buy into. Under those circumstances, what's the necessity for any one of us to stay with Pentax? It becomes an arbitrary choice at that point.




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09-20-2011, 09:29 AM   #134
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That's excellent news. Well then, I can wait a bit more and/or collect some money as I would certainly be interested into a body much more compact/light than K-5 that would accept lenses such as FA 43 or FA 77.
09-20-2011, 09:55 AM - 1 Like   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by detritus Quote
its only fun to play with old lenses up to a point. i have a few good ones myself and i do use them from time to time. but i hope for pentax to be a forward looking brand with a solid line of CURRENT products, not legacy products.
But there's something you aren't factoring in. Consider how few of the large number of lenses that were made for, or are adaptable to, K mount have attained legendary status for quality.

The quality of FA Limiteds and to a lessor extent the DA Limiteds, for example, are not seen in every generation of new lenses; and there's just one Zeiss 21mm, or Voigtlander 125, or Leica R 50mm f/2 Summicron, or Pentax A 85 f1.4, etc. (I'm sure the experienced photographers here can add a few more to the list). The ability to not have to settle for consumer quality lenses is the number one thing that keeps my interest in photography equipment. And LBA is no small issue, as you can see here. Excepting the sensor, what mechanical aspect is more important than glass to picture quality?

So it isn't just "old" or legacy per se that means anything . . . it's that it seems a truly great lens is not so easy to produce (or the commitment isn't there from manufacturers). If the past is an indicator of how often we'll see Limited-quality lenses, then a new lens mount only promises to reduce things to consumer photography for many years.
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