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12-10-2007, 01:46 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by switters Quote
The only reason I'm hesitating to buy a 5D, to be honest, is my infatuation with the 31, 43 & 77 Limiteds I own. I really have a hard time imagining selling them. I'm also hoping (although not optimistically) that somehow Pentax will pull off a miracle.
Some crazy guys do mod them to use on a 5D ...

12-10-2007, 04:10 PM   #47
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Some transchip patents

QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
New sensor had been developed as APS-C sensor by 4 companies: Trans Chip Ltd. (Israel) - already sold to Samsung, Samsung, Pentax and unknown 4rd - rumors - Sanyo, Casio, Cypress or Sharp (no true information).
All DA and DA* lenses are not developed to work with APS-H.
.
Did a search for TransCip patents (and yes, they are bought by samsung), could something like this be expected in the new sensor:

Dual exposure for image sensor
Dual exposure for image sensor - IP.com's Patent Debate
United States Patent Application: 0060192873

0005] U.S. Pat. No. 5,144,442 (the '442 patent) discloses a method to increase the dynamic range of still images (and of video streams) by acquiring the same scene with multiple exposure periods, then merging the multiple images into a single wide dynamic range image.


This one could also be of interest:

pat no: 7300857 Through-wafer interconnects for photoimager and memory wafers.

/Mats
12-11-2007, 02:53 AM   #48
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As I understand TranChip offers something like Fuji SuperCCD ... If it could be real it will be very-very good.
I hope that new sensor + camera's soft + processor will be MUCH BETTER than in K10D.
12-11-2007, 03:35 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
As I understand TranChip offers something like Fuji SuperCCD ... If it could be real it will be very-very good.
I hope that new sensor + camera's soft + processor will be MUCH BETTER than in K10D.
Hi Ogl,

Nice to see you here!

Knowing your "love" of the Sony sensor family, I can clearly see how you could welcome Pentax, finally going with its own sensor design.

I also think it's an excellent move and the only way to be in control of what matters most: Image Quality.

Let's hope their first try will be a hit!

I sincerely think that Pentax did what they could with the K10's Sony sensor and that they did a pretty good job (sharpness and color rendition are great), at leats until noise kicks in above ISO 800. Beyond ISO 800, well, if you compare to the best out there (Canon 40D IMO), they are one good stop behind.

I often think my Ds was a ISO 200-1600 camera while my K10 is a ISO 100-1000. I gained ISO 100 but lost ISO 1600....

Let's hope we will regain higher sensitivities with the KxxD!

12-11-2007, 05:08 AM   #50
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To say honestly, I had used film with ISO100-400 and several times - 800.
As for *ist DS - aprrox.20-30% of my shots with ISO800.
That's why I don't care about ISO1600 at all. I need working ISO800 without postproccesing.
K10D can offer good ISO800 only with very good exposition, without any mistake.
ISO100 and 200 are exellent.
I'd like to see the price of new camera, dimensions and noise at ISO800.
If K200 will be the better version of K10D in noise at ISO800 and small as K100D, I will
choose K200.
12-11-2007, 05:12 AM   #51
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If Pentax can offer the best ISO800 with new camera, better AF system, good colour, contrast and DR of sensor it would be all what I need. I don't care about another technical specification.
12-11-2007, 01:12 PM   #52
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Something about high resolution sensors

QuoteOriginally posted by switters Quote
I'm feeling increasingly skeptical that Pentax will be able to increase resolution and improve DR & high ISO performance at the same time. Granted, they haven't publicly stated that as their goal, but it certainly seems that it must be considering recent offerings from Nikon & Canon.

What I've noticed from looking at the high ISO samples of the 40D & D300 is that clarity and sharpness is sacrificed to reduce noise. This seems to be a compromise inherent to an APS-C sensor. The 5D is the only camera I'm aware of that can shoot ISO 3200 without a significant loss of detail, and without a prohibitive level of noise.

Sean Reid states in his review that he liked the K10D because it has one of the weakest AA filters of any DSLR he has tried. He appreciates this because it means the files from the K10D are quite detailed and stand up very well to the competition.

I fear that Pentax has abandoned this strategy simply to leap-frog Canon and Nikon in the APS-C megapixel race. If that is indeed true, I'll be very sad. I don't like the direction most manufacturers are going with AA filters & on-camera noise reduction, and I am still hoping that Pentax isn't swayed by this trend.

I guess we'll find out soon enough.
High resolution sensors dont need such a strong AA filter. They are more necessary when the lens resolution exceeds that of the sensor (moire is worse with good glass). With high res sensors the lens itself acts as the AA filter. 14mp vs 12mp is neither here nor there regarding photosite size or S/N ratio but a weaker AA filter, plus the extra resolution, is likely to result in noticeable improvements in detail.

Assuming the rumours are true of course
12-11-2007, 03:00 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
High resolution sensors dont need such a strong AA filter. They are more necessary when the lens resolution exceeds that of the sensor (moire is worse with good glass). With high res sensors the lens itself acts as the AA filter. 14mp vs 12mp is neither here nor there regarding photosite size or S/N ratio but a weaker AA filter, plus the extra resolution, is likely to result in noticeable improvements in detail.

Assuming the rumours are true of course
And what, theoretically , would the noise be like on such a sensor if the detail is improved to this degree?

12-11-2007, 04:48 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by switters Quote
And what, theoretically , would the noise be like on such a sensor if the detail is improved to this degree?
It would be the same. Noise is added post-AA. It's digital, while the AA filter is part of the optical path.
12-11-2007, 05:59 PM   #55
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Trying to follow this

QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
High resolution sensors dont need such a strong AA filter. They are more necessary when the lens resolution exceeds that of the sensor (moire is worse with good glass). With high res sensors the lens itself acts as the AA filter. 14mp vs 12mp is neither here nor there regarding photosite size or S/N ratio but a weaker AA filter, plus the extra resolution, is likely to result in noticeable improvements in detail.

Assuming the rumours are true of course
Steve,

Havening no technical background makes this a little hard to follow. Please see if I am understanding this properly. Am I right in thinking most average to good lenses have better resolution than today's sensors? An AA filter is used, in part, to reduce moire that is created by these high resolution lenses? A higher resolution sensor than we have today would allow the use of an AA filter even weaker than the one now used in the K10D?

If that is correct so far that would mean greater detail could be achieved at all ISO settings, right? This is of course all theory at this point but it seems that this would mean that higher ISO files may have as much noise as files from present sensors but the detail would be increased. Am I on the right track here, theoretically?

Thanks,

Ken
12-11-2007, 06:40 PM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Steve,

Havening no technical background makes this a little hard to follow. Please see if I am understanding this properly. Am I right in thinking most average to good lenses have better resolution than today's sensors? An AA filter is used, in part, to reduce moire that is created by these high resolution lenses? A higher resolution sensor than we have today would allow the use of an AA filter even weaker than the one now used in the K10D?

If that is correct so far that would mean greater detail could be achieved at all ISO settings, right? This is of course all theory at this point but it seems that this would mean that higher ISO files may have as much noise as files from present sensors but the detail would be increased. Am I on the right track here, theoretically?

Thanks,

Ken
And knowing what I know about some lenses you all don't know about the theory of high-resolution chip holds much water

The noise levels should be lower since more real detail is captured and less digital computation has to be made.

Remember Ben's statement that I like to bring up over and over again. If you don't know basically companies will tell him to toss the hasselblad and pick up the Pentax cause the IQ will be that great.
12-11-2007, 06:47 PM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Remember Ben's statement that I like to bring up over and over again. If you don't know basically companies will tell him to toss the hasselblad and pick up the Pentax cause the IQ will be that great.
I must have missed this - when did he say that?

If he's right, Pentax will be selling K20Ds like hot cakes. I'll be one of the first. More detail with less noise at higher ISOs is really all I want in the next model. (Okay, faster AF would be good too but I'm actually learning to live with the K10D in this regard).
12-11-2007, 07:17 PM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by switters Quote
And what, theoretically , would the noise be like on such a sensor if the detail is improved to this degree?
The Sony Alpha 700 and Nikon D300 show that shifting to CMOS from CCD brings noise benefits despite the resolution increase. Of course the fact that a new CMOS chip is to be used is only a rumour.
12-11-2007, 07:26 PM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
The Sony Alpha 700 and Nikon D300 show that shifting to CMOS from CCD brings noise benefits despite the resolution increase. Of course the fact that a new CMOS chip is to be used is only a rumour.
But from what I've seen, there is considerable "smearing" and loss of detail with the D300 high ISO files. I'm hoping that isn't the case with the new (rumored, of course) Pentax.
12-11-2007, 07:26 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Steve,

Havening no technical background makes this a little hard to follow. Please see if I am understanding this properly. Am I right in thinking most average to good lenses have better resolution than today's sensors? An AA filter is used, in part, to reduce moire that is created by these high resolution lenses? A higher resolution sensor than we have today would allow the use of an AA filter even weaker than the one now used in the K10D?
In theory yes, or at least no stronger but with less moire.

QuoteQuote:
If that is correct so far that would mean greater detail could be achieved at all ISO settings, right? This is of course all theory at this point but it seems that this would mean that higher ISO files may have as much noise as files from present sensors but the detail would be increased. Am I on the right track here, theoretically?

Ken
No, the noise is a totally separate issue. The noise is simply the random signal variation caused by various sources at each pixel. This depends on...

The native noise rating of the sensor.
The strength of the actual signal at a location.
Exposure time.
The "cleanliness" of the image pipeline (noise gets introduced into the image by the electronics in the camera)
Image processing (most high ISO noise is actually removed by firmware in the camera).

However even if the noise is the same (signal to noise ratio is equal) the noise in the higher res sensor will have a tighter grain and may seem less objectionable in a print.
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