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12-11-2007, 08:18 PM   #61
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Thanks Steve

QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
In theory yes, or at least no stronger but with less moire.

However even if the noise is the same (signal to noise ratio is equal) the noise in the higher res sensor will have a tighter grain and may seem less objectionable in a print.
Wow. In this computer age that will be a hard advantage to market. It is a feature I would rate very high but wonder how it will "Play in Peoria". If this is the direction Pentax is taking kudos to them.

Thanks for the explanation Steve,

Ken

12-11-2007, 09:50 PM   #62
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Ok, so I spent the last three hours on the Japanese patent site doing some research and boy have I come back with some schtuff.

So looks like Samsung has been very busy in the last year or so working on some sensors.

Well on Samsungs main semi-conductor site they talk of high-res sensors with pixel sizes as small as 1.75 nano-meters. Reading up on some patents they have these nice things to offer:

1. Signal generator to reduce noise (same technology that Canon uses)
2. CMOS with double work function
3. A CMOS pixel that can detect two different wavelengths of light at the same time to increase dynamic range and super high resolution.
4. Special node terminal for individual pixels to have great dynamic range, higher resolution, better low-light performance, better noise reduction and better ability in different temperatures.
5. An improved sensor film to allow more light to each micro lens (Canon uses this too).

Hmmm... the big sleeper?
12-12-2007, 01:31 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
1. Signal generator to reduce noise (same technology that Canon uses)
2. CMOS with double work function
3. A CMOS pixel that can detect two different wavelengths of light at the same time to increase dynamic range and super high resolution.
4. Special node terminal for individual pixels to have great dynamic range, higher resolution, better low-light performance, better noise reduction and better ability in different temperatures.
5. An improved sensor film to allow more light to each micro lens (Canon uses this too).

Hmmm... the big sleeper?
Are there any links for patents?
12-12-2007, 01:38 AM   #64
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But it's hard to make any predictions based on patents. All major companies file hundreds of patents every year. Very few actually make it to be implemented in a product.

12-12-2007, 07:23 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
But it's hard to make any predictions based on patents. All major companies file hundreds of patents every year. Very few actually make it to be implemented in a product.
True, but this is more of check to see if samsung is even thinking about making these chips and they also have a patent from a year and them some ago to manufacture CMOS sensors and then another to test them so it's looking like Samsung may be producing these chips so we shall see.

Links to patents, oh boy, let me go back to the Japanese patent site real quick, it's like super hard to find anything, but I'll get on it.
12-12-2007, 08:11 AM   #66
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Ok I can't link them do to there weird system, but I can post the patent numbers and link the search site.

Double work patent: 2007-016502
Pixel drive: 2006-194616
Manufacturing of CMOS sensor: 2006-167929
Better performing pixel: 2006-054699

If you want to find more all you have to do is go here: Industrial Property Digital Library Home Page and click on PAJ and in the search function type Samsung in the first line and CMOS in the second line then click search. To view what you found hit index indication up on the top right of the page.
12-12-2007, 09:14 AM   #67
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THANK YOU!!! Hope something will be real.
12-12-2007, 09:28 AM   #68
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Found another patents too
Searching PAJ information.

12-12-2007, 10:29 AM   #69
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Several patents are about technology PMOS + NMOS
12-12-2007, 10:37 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Several patents are about technology PMOS + NMOS
As part of any new CMOS chip there are metal transistors which are either PMOS or NMOS. They are vital parts of the CMOS's ability to have variable power to each individual pixel.
12-15-2007, 03:34 AM   #71
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We think in right direction.
12-15-2007, 02:42 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
We think in right direction.
Or maybe left direction?
12-16-2007, 05:34 AM   #73
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I hope everyone realizes this was just a theory, not a fact. I have no idea whether it does or not. I can see many advantages for the "high-end product" to use more of an APS-H sized sensor -- from MP to ISO as well as a future upgrade path to 24MP+. Any commodity product, like the alleged K200 with the same 10MP CCD sensor on the current K10D, would continue to offer full DA compatibility.

I was told by both another engineer as well as a reputable Pentax photographer on another board that the DA* lenses are designed for up to a 1.25x crop, hence why they are significantly larger (even more than their aperture would require at 1.5x). That seems to make sense to me as well. If true, then it's not unsurprising that they'd put out a 1.25x crop with the added size unless they were eventually going to release such a body at some point.
12-16-2007, 09:36 AM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by bjsmith Quote
I hope everyone realizes this was just a theory, not a fact. I have no idea whether it does or not. I can see many advantages for the "high-end product" to use more of an APS-H sized sensor -- from MP to ISO as well as a future upgrade path to 24MP+. Any commodity product, like the alleged K200 with the same 10MP CCD sensor on the current K10D, would continue to offer full DA compatibility.

I was told by both another engineer as well as a reputable Pentax photographer on another board that the DA* lenses are designed for up to a 1.25x crop, hence why they are significantly larger (even more than their aperture would require at 1.5x). That seems to make sense to me as well. If true, then it's not unsurprising that they'd put out a 1.25x crop with the added size unless they were eventually going to release such a body at some point.
Well, the FF pentax proto type had a price tag that was out of hand, and they did what they had to do to get in the price range they needed. $8,000 USD cameras won't create long Queues at Walmart. the APS-H lens size keeps open the option of using a larger sensor at some future time when upsizing won't break the cost bank.

seems to me its a little soon for that. I would surmise they can get a wow a time or two
yet with higher MP's cheaper than with a bigger sensor...., but at some point it will be cheaper to make the sensor bigger than it is to increase the MP's, and when that day comes the path is open.
12-29-2007, 09:08 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by bjsmith Quote
There are a lot of rumors flying around. I don't know if I believe any of them. But here is some food for thought. If anyone can confirm these details (I'm really searching Intel's site), this would be great info.

- Sony (designer?) and Intel (fab and support logic -- including prototype/reference board?) are behind the newer 12MP CMOS sensor in the APS-C / 1.5x crop size (roughly 24mmx16mm), which is now available in the Nikon D300 and Sony A700.
- Sony and Intel also have a 14MP CMOS sensor in development which will be released soon. Several sites are actually reporting this is more APS-H / 1.25x crop sized (roughly 28x18mm),
- The new Pentax DA* lenses are designed for up to a 1.25x crop, explaining some of the added size (beyond just f-stop).

The current 6/10MP APS-C CCDs in the K100/10D are 1.53x crop. The current, non-Pentax CMOS sensors in some other products (e.g., Canon) that are APS-H size like (yes, I know, APS-H is actually 16:9, but not this sensor which is 3:2) are around 1.27x crop I believe.

If there is a new, commodity CMOS sensor in development at 14MP and it was APS-H / 1.27x crop, then Sunsung-Pentax would have known about it via their engineering "Gold Book" type vendor channels years ago. The design of the DA* series and their 1.25x crop support could be well explained by this then. It's not uncommon for designs to run late, and how the introduction dates line-up on the DA* to the rumors of Pentax's new products make sense.

The 1.27x crop "K20D," with its required 1.25x crop DA* lenses, would command that post-sale premium after-sale return, something that the new Hoya management is probably looking for. Pentax still offers the "K200D" for more cost-conscience buyers, but the "K20D" now gives Hoya more margins, especially for moving that new DA* product stock. It's also far more of a mainstream, commodity product, volume-wise, than the Medium Format (60mmx45mm) 645D would ever be, whlie giving a solid upgrade path to possibly as high as 24MP with a solid ISO in an APS-H sized CMOS sensor.

After all, the 645D started at 18MP, and was also rumored to be possibly 24MP at one point. That was already a far cry from Hasselbad who is at 38MP. The volume for such medium format is already constrained, and Hasselbad would be the call over a solution that is only 45-60% the resolution, regardless of price (after all, why go Medium Format unless for such fidelity?). But now, with a 14MP sensor, offering both full-frame compatibility and a new line of premium DA* lenses, Pentax gets far more volume and those margins to boot. And, again, by moving to APS-H size, instead of sticking with APS-C, while using a CMOS sensor, 24MP should be eventually achievable without too much ISO hit (APS-C is probably more at 18MP).

Now Pentax isn't going to abandon the 1.5x lens crowd altogether, that's where a "sister product" like the "K200D" would fit. You repackage the K10D 10MP CCD sensor, just like the *istD's 6MP CCD sensor was repackaged into the K100D before, with updated SR, the higher-res 900K LCDs like on the D300/A700 (or possibly that's only on the "K20D," and a cheaper, 460K version that is already 2x of today's 230K goes on the "K200D").

I'm sure the fab cost of the 10MP CCD sensor on the K10D is already little more than the 6MP CCD of the K100D now, given the same APS-C die size. In fact, engineering lifecycles are all about reuse and refinement, costs becoming lower, hence the *istD into the K100D with more features, now the K10D into the "K200D" with more features. Some might argue the K100D Super is "too new" to do that too. But the K100D Super is little more than a firmware update (use SR dust reduction, and new firmware so the slot can use the SDM in-lens), so it's just "finishing off" existing 6MP CCD/control stock through mid next-year or whenever they run out (even though sites will still have stock later than that, Pentax won't supply them anymore much sooner). So any "K200D" is ready to take its place.

This strategy makes total sense to me, especially with the 645D being all but officially cancelled and the new DA* lenses supporting up to a 1.25x crop factor. But this is still 100% speculation, I have to admit, but it makes both engineering and marketing sense to me.
Sony has two sensor sizes on its own sensor "roadmap" which I saw posted in the Sony forum. On this roadmap there are sensors in the APS-C size and Full frame. Conspicuously absent is any sensor that are in between these 2 in size. Hence I don't believe Sony has a 14mp APS-H sensor. There will probably be a 14mp Sony APS-C sensor in a year or two (or perhaps even sooner), but it won't be ready in time for a Pentax K20D to be announced in January. Would Sony let Pentax be the first company to have a new sensor instead of Sony itself? That seems extremely unlikely to me.

It is almost certain that Pentax will introduce a 12mp APS-C camera in January. The Chinese forum rumor of a 14mp sensor is probably a camera under development and not ready for release yet. Such a camera would likely be full frame, and it probably won't be ready until later in the year. Perhaps we may see a 14mp CMOS full frame Pentax DSLR by Photokina time. The 14mp full frame sensor, if the rumor is correct, may come either from Sony or Cypress. Sony is due to release a full frame flagship model, and it would not shock me if it uses either the 12mp CMOS sensor found in the Nikon D3 or a new 14mp full frame sensor.
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