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12-06-2007, 09:00 PM   #1
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Could "K20D" actually be APS-H (1.27x) sized?

There are a lot of rumors flying around. I don't know if I believe any of them. But here is some food for thought. If anyone can confirm these details (I'm really searching Intel's site), this would be great info.

- Sony (designer?) and Intel (fab and support logic -- including prototype/reference board?) are behind the newer 12MP CMOS sensor in the APS-C / 1.5x crop size (roughly 24mmx16mm), which is now available in the Nikon D300 and Sony A700.
- Sony and Intel also have a 14MP CMOS sensor in development which will be released soon. Several sites are actually reporting this is more APS-H / 1.25x crop sized (roughly 28x18mm),
- The new Pentax DA* lenses are designed for up to a 1.25x crop, explaining some of the added size (beyond just f-stop).

The current 6/10MP APS-C CCDs in the K100/10D are 1.53x crop. The current, non-Pentax CMOS sensors in some other products (e.g., Canon) that are APS-H size like (yes, I know, APS-H is actually 16:9, but not this sensor which is 3:2) are around 1.27x crop I believe.

If there is a new, commodity CMOS sensor in development at 14MP and it was APS-H / 1.27x crop, then Sunsung-Pentax would have known about it via their engineering "Gold Book" type vendor channels years ago. The design of the DA* series and their 1.25x crop support could be well explained by this then. It's not uncommon for designs to run late, and how the introduction dates line-up on the DA* to the rumors of Pentax's new products make sense.

The 1.27x crop "K20D," with its required 1.25x crop DA* lenses, would command that post-sale premium after-sale return, something that the new Hoya management is probably looking for. Pentax still offers the "K200D" for more cost-conscience buyers, but the "K20D" now gives Hoya more margins, especially for moving that new DA* product stock. It's also far more of a mainstream, commodity product, volume-wise, than the Medium Format (60mmx45mm) 645D would ever be, whlie giving a solid upgrade path to possibly as high as 24MP with a solid ISO in an APS-H sized CMOS sensor.

After all, the 645D started at 18MP, and was also rumored to be possibly 24MP at one point. That was already a far cry from Hasselbad who is at 38MP. The volume for such medium format is already constrained, and Hasselbad would be the call over a solution that is only 45-60% the resolution, regardless of price (after all, why go Medium Format unless for such fidelity?). But now, with a 14MP sensor, offering both full-frame compatibility and a new line of premium DA* lenses, Pentax gets far more volume and those margins to boot. And, again, by moving to APS-H size, instead of sticking with APS-C, while using a CMOS sensor, 24MP should be eventually achievable without too much ISO hit (APS-C is probably more at 18MP).

Now Pentax isn't going to abandon the 1.5x lens crowd altogether, that's where a "sister product" like the "K200D" would fit. You repackage the K10D 10MP CCD sensor, just like the *istD's 6MP CCD sensor was repackaged into the K100D before, with updated SR, the higher-res 900K LCDs like on the D300/A700 (or possibly that's only on the "K20D," and a cheaper, 460K version that is already 2x of today's 230K goes on the "K200D").

I'm sure the fab cost of the 10MP CCD sensor on the K10D is already little more than the 6MP CCD of the K100D now, given the same APS-C die size. In fact, engineering lifecycles are all about reuse and refinement, costs becoming lower, hence the *istD into the K100D with more features, now the K10D into the "K200D" with more features. Some might argue the K100D Super is "too new" to do that too. But the K100D Super is little more than a firmware update (use SR dust reduction, and new firmware so the slot can use the SDM in-lens), so it's just "finishing off" existing 6MP CCD/control stock through mid next-year or whenever they run out (even though sites will still have stock later than that, Pentax won't supply them anymore much sooner). So any "K200D" is ready to take its place.

This strategy makes total sense to me, especially with the 645D being all but officially cancelled and the new DA* lenses supporting up to a 1.25x crop factor. But this is still 100% speculation, I have to admit, but it makes both engineering and marketing sense to me.


Last edited by bjsmith; 12-06-2007 at 09:28 PM.
12-07-2007, 12:57 AM   #2
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I agree with a lot of things except thesensor size which has been confirmed by various people supposedly "in the know" that it was APS-C.

I think the APS-H or any equivalent 1.25x is still an upgrade possibility but keep in mind that SR might not be possible with such a sensor size.

Oh and 645D latest rumour was 30Mpix AFAIR.
12-07-2007, 02:15 AM   #3
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
...but keep in mind that SR might not be possible with such a sensor size...
Hmm, I've heard this speculation a number of times, but why shouldn't SR be possible with a bigger sensor??
12-07-2007, 03:22 AM   #4
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Because the sensor has to move and still be covered by the lens reduced image circle (compared to 35mm). If the sensor goes too far, no image there or at least big light fall off (IQ too).

12-07-2007, 07:23 AM   #5
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My only thought on this - How far to you really think that sensor is moving?

My guess - .002" at most in either direction.
12-07-2007, 07:32 AM   #6
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These seemingly endless threads remind me of when I was a kid and looking under my parents bed on December 20th to see what I was getting for Christmas..... I don't care till it's on the street.
12-07-2007, 07:39 AM   #7
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No it could not

QuoteOriginally posted by bjsmith Quote
There are a lot of rumors flying around. I don't know if I believe any of them. But here is some food for thought. If anyone can confirm these details (I'm really searching Intel's site), this would be great info.

- Sony (designer?) and Intel (fab and support logic -- including prototype/reference board?) are behind the newer 12MP CMOS sensor in the APS-C / 1.5x crop size (roughly 24mmx16mm), which is now available in the Nikon D300 and Sony A700.
- Sony and Intel also have a 14MP CMOS sensor in development which will be released soon. Several sites are actually reporting this is more APS-H / 1.25x crop sized (roughly 28x18mm),
- The new Pentax DA* lenses are designed for up to a 1.25x crop, explaining some of the added size (beyond just f-stop).

The current 6/10MP APS-C CCDs in the K100/10D are 1.53x crop. The current, non-Pentax CMOS sensors in some other products (e.g., Canon) that are APS-H size like (yes, I know, APS-H is actually 16:9, but not this sensor which is 3:2) are around 1.27x crop I believe.

If there is a new, commodity CMOS sensor in development at 14MP and it was APS-H / 1.27x crop, then Sunsung-Pentax would have known about it via their engineering "Gold Book" type vendor channels years ago. The design of the DA* series and their 1.25x crop support could be well explained by this then. It's not uncommon for designs to run late, and how the introduction dates line-up on the DA* to the rumors of Pentax's new products make sense.

The 1.27x crop "K20D," with its required 1.25x crop DA* lenses, would command that post-sale premium after-sale return, something that the new Hoya management is probably looking for. Pentax still offers the "K200D" for more cost-conscience buyers, but the "K20D" now gives Hoya more margins, especially for moving that new DA* product stock. It's also far more of a mainstream, commodity product, volume-wise, than the Medium Format (60mmx45mm) 645D would ever be, whlie giving a solid upgrade path to possibly as high as 24MP with a solid ISO in an APS-H sized CMOS sensor.

After all, the 645D started at 18MP, and was also rumored to be possibly 24MP at one point. That was already a far cry from Hasselbad who is at 38MP. The volume for such medium format is already constrained, and Hasselbad would be the call over a solution that is only 45-60% the resolution, regardless of price (after all, why go Medium Format unless for such fidelity?). But now, with a 14MP sensor, offering both full-frame compatibility and a new line of premium DA* lenses, Pentax gets far more volume and those margins to boot. And, again, by moving to APS-H size, instead of sticking with APS-C, while using a CMOS sensor, 24MP should be eventually achievable without too much ISO hit (APS-C is probably more at 18MP).

Now Pentax isn't going to abandon the 1.5x lens crowd altogether, that's where a "sister product" like the "K200D" would fit. You repackage the K10D 10MP CCD sensor, just like the *istD's 6MP CCD sensor was repackaged into the K100D before, with updated SR, the higher-res 900K LCDs like on the D300/A700 (or possibly that's only on the "K20D," and a cheaper, 460K version that is already 2x of today's 230K goes on the "K200D").

I'm sure the fab cost of the 10MP CCD sensor on the K10D is already little more than the 6MP CCD of the K100D now, given the same APS-C die size. In fact, engineering lifecycles are all about reuse and refinement, costs becoming lower, hence the *istD into the K100D with more features, now the K10D into the "K200D" with more features. Some might argue the K100D Super is "too new" to do that too. But the K100D Super is little more than a firmware update (use SR dust reduction, and new firmware so the slot can use the SDM in-lens), so it's just "finishing off" existing 6MP CCD/control stock through mid next-year or whenever they run out (even though sites will still have stock later than that, Pentax won't supply them anymore much sooner). So any "K200D" is ready to take its place.

This strategy makes total sense to me, especially with the 645D being all but officially cancelled and the new DA* lenses supporting up to a 1.25x crop factor. But this is still 100% speculation, I have to admit, but it makes both engineering and marketing sense to me.
The K20D has an APSC sized chip.

If it did not it would have very bad vignetting on all Pentax DA lenses.
12-07-2007, 08:17 AM   #8
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
The K20D has an APSC sized chip.
If it did not it would have very bad vignetting on all Pentax DA lenses.
Don't forget the DA* lenses!
They support a 1.25x crop.

12-07-2007, 08:48 AM   #9
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom M Quote
My only thought on this - How far to you really think that sensor is moving?

My guess - .002" at most in either direction.
Take a K10D, remove the lens and set the SR to 500mm or more.
Set the mode to a very long shutter speed like 5s or something, press the button, look at the sensor and move the camera.

You might be surprised ....
12-07-2007, 12:10 PM   #10
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QuoteOriginally posted by bjsmith Quote
Don't forget the DA* lenses!
They support a 1.25x crop.
first I've heard this. Got a link?
12-07-2007, 01:09 PM   #11
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No link, Alan, but if you compare the size of the rear element of the 16-50 to the 14mm, the 16-50 dwarfs the 14mm. Furthermore, on a 35mm camera, the 14mm blacks out either side of the frame. The 16-50 vignettes, but nowhere near as severely.
12-07-2007, 02:06 PM   #12
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QuoteOriginally posted by bjsmith Quote
Don't forget the DA* lenses!
They support a 1.25x crop.
No, they support a 1.5 crop with room for SR. Some may have less light falloff than others and may work on a FF camera at some focal lengths, but they are not "designed to support a 1.25 crop" and I dont know where you heard that.

Besides, I KNOW it has a 1.5 crop so can we stop all this banter?
12-07-2007, 03:35 PM   #13
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QuoteOriginally posted by bjsmith Quote
- Sony and Intel also have a 14MP CMOS sensor in development which will be released soon. Several sites are actually reporting this is more APS-H / 1.25x crop sized (roughly 28x18mm)
May be so, but the 14Mp CMOS in the new Pentax is *not a Sony*.
If Sony are also developing an 14Mp sensor, it is simply pure coincidence.
There is a 14Mp CMOS from Cypress too, it is 24x36.
Pentax are not using this one either in the new model.
12-07-2007, 03:46 PM   #14
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If they were going to go with a bigger sensor, why would they release DA* lenses with 35mm equivilant traditional ranges for an APS-C sensor?

That, the point about the shake reduction and the vignetting that would be present all point to an APS-C sensor.
12-07-2007, 05:39 PM   #15
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Well what the heck I'll add to the thread.
BJ you must have seen Lindy's post on the other forum where he went to DemoDaze with all the major suppliers in a 2 day show in Colorado and discovered [Quote]:

Nothing touchable new from Pentax but big plans instore for 2008 PMA in late January. It would seem the 1.25x croppers will get their wish with K20D. Not confirmed but it most certainly seems the rumors are correct and K20D is a 1.25x, most likely samsung made cmos sensor. And its not first generstion [sic] cmos from samsung so this is a good thing.

And if you havn't voted on the poll I started I'd encourage you to have a look here as you can see the following quote as well on the Tamron 70-200 f2.8

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/pentax-slr-lens-discussion/15856-sigma-70...macro-hsm.html

"Tamron, likely will announce 80-200mm 2.8 at PMA 01-08. Pentax mount will likely not be included with Canon & Nikon, so this lens may never make it to Pentax AF mount. Bummer. Oh well. Sony will get issued before Pentax if Sony gets issued. Tamron's goal now is to move their entire lens line over to Image Stabilized lenses so this is likely why Pentax and Sony will get left out since they have anti shake bodies."
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