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12-12-2007, 01:40 PM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by JMS Quote
Are we talking :
ultrasonic dust removal,
higher framerate and
burst capacity,
with a possibility of panning SR and a
dedicated rechareable battery?
Would be cool
probably
probably
Would be cool
No, AA batteries.

12-13-2007, 04:54 AM   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by CSpronken Quote
Perhaps live view requires modifications to the 6mp to the sensor that Sony isn't willing to do?
Yes, see your point, although the cost of both the "6mp pipeline" as well as the "10mp pipeline" which ever you use are already made now, so using either would not in- or decrease cost because of that. The extra cost of the new 14mp sensor you could offset by being able to ask a higher price and have the 6mp as cheaper alternative. The advantage being, overall higher high ISO IQ and more resolution and price choice for the customer.
The Pentax image processor PRIME with DDR2 memory was originally designed for the 10Mp Sony. Pentax has updated it for their own 14Mp CMOS, but downgrade PRIME to work with the 6Mp from Sony was simply not seen as a good idea - if it was possible at all. The PRIME is the main reason to why the K100D replacement is more responsive and has more advanced image tweaking toolbox for JPEG's.

About live view - don't expect it in the entry level model. Too expensive!
As as been said - the K100D replacement is a K10D with exterior styling and user interface from K100D, with scene modes etc. and with extra tricks also found in the K10D replacement.
It may be more of an evolution than revolution (the K10D replacement is more a revolution!) but the features and performance *for the price* is certainly a revolution! The K100D replacement will make a very nice 2nd camera for K10D users.
I also believe that current K100D users will appreciate the new features, extra tweakability and performance in the replacement model. It is a significant step forward. From my judgement, I find it to be very competetive for entry level customers who wants something more than a simple p&s with replaceable lenses. (Nikon D40).
12-13-2007, 09:03 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
The Pentax image processor PRIME with DDR2 memory was originally designed for the 10Mp Sony. Pentax has updated it for their own 14Mp CMOS, but downgrade PRIME to work with the 6Mp from Sony was simply not seen as a good idea - if it was possible at all. The PRIME is the main reason to why the K100D replacement is more responsive and has more advanced image tweaking toolbox for JPEG's.
Yes, I wonder though, why not? I mean the Nikon D40 uses the same 6mp sensor and is being praised for it great responsiveness, why wouldn't Pentax be able to do the same? They milked the K100D 6mp imaging pipeline quite a bit already, I don't see why an improvement somewhere along the line wouldn't have been a worthwhile investment. They could even have used it on a slightly cheaper 6mp version of the K10D, that would have made so many Pentax users happy and would have returned a good chunk of the investment already. Look at the DPreview review of the K100D or the K10D, then think about how many of the cons would have been gone with a 6mp K10D and how many pro's there would be added. If you ask me such a camera would have had a new all time high rating written all over it.

Instead of tackling the K100D main point of critique, namely it's responsiveness, they made an almost unnoticeable upgrade putting their margins under pressure. If the K100D replacement is more responsive that would be great, but it would be a shame if we got more high ISO noise in return. It would be the whole K100D - K10D dilemma all over again.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
About live view - don't expect it in the entry level model. Too expensive!
As as been said - the K100D replacement is a K10D with exterior styling and user interface from K100D, with scene modes etc. and with extra tricks also found in the K10D replacement.
It may be more of an evolution than revolution (the K10D replacement is more a revolution!) but the features and performance *for the price* is certainly a revolution! The K100D replacement will make a very nice 2nd camera for K10D users.
I also believe that current K100D users will appreciate the new features, extra tweakability and performance in the replacement model. It is a significant step forward. From my judgement, I find it to be very competetive for entry level customers who wants something more than a simple p&s with replaceable lenses. (Nikon D40).
The problem is the option of more features extra tweakability and performance has already been there for quite some time now and pretty cheap as well lately in the form of the K10D. But I'll rest my case till we'll see what we get in January, quite possibly the IQ of the K100D replacement will be better than expected at ISO 800 and higher.

Last edited by CSpronken; 12-13-2007 at 09:20 AM.
12-13-2007, 09:52 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by CSpronken Quote
Yes, I wonder though, why not? I mean the Nikon D40 uses the same 6mp sensor and is being praised for it great responsiveness, why wouldn't Pentax be able to do the same? They milked the K100D 6mp imaging pipeline quite a bit already, I don't see why an improvement somewhere along the line wouldn't have been a worthwhile investment.
No, you don't understand, the 6mpix imaging pipeline has not been received that well, it has been criticized although it is better in the K100D. It is slow and not tweakable so it has do go, whatever you (and I) may think.
Developping the Prime pipeline down to the 6Mpix sensor just for an ultra low-end camera would be stupid financialy speaking.

QuoteOriginally posted by CSpronken Quote
They could even have used it on a slightly cheaper 6mp version of the K10D, that would have made so many Pentax users happy and would have returned a good chunk of the investment already. Look at the DPreview review of the K100D or the K10D, then think about how many of the cons would have been gone with a 6mp K10D and how many pro's there would be added. If you ask me such a camera would have had a new all time high rating written all over it.
No, the critique from DPR were not much related to the sensor but the way Pentax handeled noise reduction and Jpeg engine. Pentax would have applied exactly the same receipt with the 6Mpix sensor and would have lead to the same kind of result which means the very stupid and stubborn "Highly Recommended (just)"

QuoteOriginally posted by CSpronken Quote
Instead of tackling the K100D main point of critique, namely it's responsiveness, they made an almost unnoticeable upgrade putting their margins under pressure. If the K100D replacement is more responsive that would be great, but it would be a shame if we got more high ISO noise in return. It would be the whole K100D - K10D dilemma all over again.
The K100D Super was never meant to see the light of day, it is a stopgap measure, something you are sorry to bring to market but you can't really do without. The AntiDust isn't important at all, simply it was very difficult to justify having a camera on the market to capable of driving SDM lenses. As for the K10/K100 dilemna over noise, well... is there really a argument to debate this again without even looking at what this K100D replacement will bring to the table?

QuoteOriginally posted by CSpronken Quote
The problem is the option of more features extra tweakability and performance has already been there for quite some time now and pretty cheap as well lately in the form of the K10D. But I'll rest my case till we'll see what we get in January, quite possibly the IQ of the K100D replacement will be better than expected at ISO 800 and higher.
The K100D replacement might indeed bring more than just a K10 inside a K100 body at least concerning tweakability. It should probably be priced less expensive than K10D (logical) and K10D should stay at the price it is now.
Concerning IQ, well, yes the IQ might be better indeed, we shall see.

12-13-2007, 11:26 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
No, you don't understand, the 6mpix imaging pipeline has not been received that well, it has been criticized although it is better in the K100D. It is slow and not tweakable so it has do go, whatever you (and I) may think.
But that's exactly what I just said, it should have been gone and be replaced with a more responsive one. The Nikon D40 (D70, KM7D) all show it's possible, all these cameras are praised for both their image quality ass well as responsiveness based on the same 6mp sensor.

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Developping the Prime pipeline down to the 6Mpix sensor just for an ultra low-end camera would be stupid financialy speaking.
Again that's exactly what I've just said. If they had developed it for a K10D 6mp model (not low end, perhaps $50 cheaper the 10mp version) introduced at the start of 2007 and trickled it down to the K100DS mid 2007 development investment would already have returned itself by now. They would not only have given there customers more choice regarding resolution, ISO performance, JPEG DR, speed and file size, but also would have a much more competitive and upgrade worthy K100DS.

QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
No, the critique from DPR were not much related to the sensor but the way Pentax handeled noise reduction and Jpeg engine. Pentax would have applied exactly the same receipt with the 6Mpix sensor and would have lead to the same kind of result which means the very stupid and stubborn "Highly Recommended (just)"
Well perhaps you should read the K100D review then: Pentax K100D Review: 24. Conclusion: Digital Photography Review



QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
The K100D Super was never meant to see the light of day, it is a stopgap measure, something you are sorry to bring to market but you can't really do without. The AntiDust isn't important at all, simply it was very difficult to justify having a camera on the market to capable of driving SDM lenses.
That's my point, if had updated the 6mp pipeline, you wouldn't have had to be ashamed of it all. It would have bust of the nuts on any other entry level DSLR in 2007 and you still could have used it in 2008 as a somewhat competitive price breaker to gain market share in stead of having to do that (half) a year earlier.


QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
As for the K10/K100 dilemna over noise, well... is there really a argument to debate this again without even looking at what this K100D replacement will bring to the table?
I agree with you there, as posted above.


QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
The K100D replacement might indeed bring more than just a K10 inside a K100 body at least concerning tweakability. It should probably be priced less expensive than K10D (logical) and K10D should stay at the price it is now.
Concerning IQ, well, yes the IQ might be better indeed, we shall see.
Yup and don't get me wrong I want Pentax to just as good as anyone else hear. I'm just afraid they make the same "mistake" by offering an affordable feature laden model based only on that not so great (noise wise) 10mp chip.
12-13-2007, 11:46 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by CSpronken Quote
Yes, I wonder though, why not? I mean the Nikon D40 uses the same 6mp sensor and is being praised for it great responsiveness, why wouldn't Pentax be able to do the same?
The K100D replacement is not regarded by Pentax as "entry level" (Nikon D40), it is regarded as positioned above - same class as Canon 400D and Olympus E-510, and they are all 10Mp. To be competetive to Canon 400D and E-510, Pentax couldn't do just 6Mp. The market would not understand it. The market would say "Hey, the competition has 10Mp, but Pentax only 6Mp. Pentax is a looser using old technology".

Because of this, Pentax did not adapt the PRIME processor to work with 6Mp. Too little market. It was much more cost efficient to take the imaging pipeline from the K10D.

Perhaps Samsung will make models for the bottom end of the DSLR market, now that Pentax are leaving it. I don't know.
12-13-2007, 12:00 PM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Perhaps Samsung will make models for the bottom end of the DSLR market, now that Pentax are leaving it. I don't know.
Roland,
The k100D Super is the idea entry level camera. Why would Pentax stop selling it? I would be willing to make a wager the K100D Super is still in the line up this time next year.

ken
12-13-2007, 12:11 PM   #23
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I don't know when the K100D Super will be withdrawn from the market, but Pentax is not releasing a new camera for the bottom end - the new "K200D" (or whatever) is aimed higher. It is expensive for Pentax to make and support several models. Leaving entry level and starting with "K200D" (or whatever) at advanced entry level (EOS 400D, E-510) and having "K20D" (or whatever) at semi-pro/advanced amateur level (EOS 40D, Sony A700) is a good choice IMHO. Leaving the gaps to be filled by Samsung. Having Samsung and Pentax to directly compete with each other is not a good idea. So I do hope for a new entry entry level from Samsung, for the market below the "K200D" (or whatever). That would be very logical.
And the new rumoured "GX-20" may not have all features of the "K20D" (or whatever). I don't know, but if it has removed a few features (for example having a simpler shutter etc.) it could be sold for less and thus priced in-between the "K200D" and "K20D", and competing directly with the D80 but being better. Who knows?

12-13-2007, 01:32 PM   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
The K100D replacement is not regarded by Pentax as "entry level" (Nikon D40), it is regarded as positioned above - same class as Canon 400D and Olympus E-510, and they are all 10Mp. To be competetive to Canon 400D and E-510, Pentax couldn't do just 6Mp. The market would not understand it. The market would say "Hey, the competition has 10Mp, but Pentax only 6Mp. Pentax is a looser using old technology".
You are right, but that's why I'm arguing to run 6 and 10mp sensors in parallel. I think it would have made sense to have 6 and 10mp versions of the K10D and K100DS as well as the new K100D replacement (or perhaps 6 and 14mp with a bigger price difference). Pentax seem to have a history of spreading the use of an imagine pipeline over time, which is smart. I'm saying in additions to that it's also smart to spread it over multiple models, like Nikon does (D40, D40x , D80)

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Because of this, Pentax did not adapt the PRIME processor to work with 6Mp. Too little market. It was much more cost efficient to take the imaging pipeline from the K10D.
I doubt that, I really do, you could have run 1.5 year sales on a 6mp K10D model, 1.5 year sales on a 6mp K100DS version and possibly still be able to use it in a 6mp version of the K100D's replacement (and I haven't even mentioned a Samsung model). If that ain't good ROI, I don't know what is. If you say, they didn't have the funds to spare for developing a faster 6mp pipeline end of 2006 I can agree with that. However it may have been cost efficient but not profit efficient, cause the consequence now is that you put the margins on the K100DS under pressure and you might not even have a viable entry level camera for 2008 as you indicate yourself.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Perhaps Samsung will make models for the bottom end of the DSLR market, now that Pentax are leaving it. I don't know.
It would be a shame if they really left it, the in body IS is much more significant for entry level customers than it is for (semi-)pro's. Pentax is offering great IS, features, IQ for the money, having no entry level to compete on market share and attract new people to your brand doesn't sound like a good idea to me.

QuoteOriginally posted by regken Quote
Roland,
The k100D Super is the idea entry level camera. Why would Pentax stop selling it? I would be willing to make a wager the K100D Super is still in the line up this time next year.
It's is now, but not anymore if Canon, Nikon and Sony launch their new entry level start of next year.

QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
I don't know when the K100D Super will be withdrawn from the market, but Pentax is not releasing a new camera for the bottom end - the new "K200D" (or whatever) is aimed higher. It is expensive for Pentax to make and support several models. Leaving entry level and starting with "K200D" (or whatever) at advanced entry level (EOS 400D, E-510) and having "K20D" (or whatever) at semi-pro/advanced amateur level (EOS 40D, Sony A700) is a good choice IMHO. Leaving the gaps to be filled by Samsung. Having Samsung and Pentax to directly compete with each other is not a good idea. So I do hope for a new entry entry level from Samsung, for the market below the "K200D" (or whatever). That would be very logical.
I hope so, there needs to remain a competitive entry level for the Pentax mount, otherwise in my view you're in trouble.

Last edited by CSpronken; 12-13-2007 at 01:41 PM.
12-13-2007, 01:34 PM   #25
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I'm not buy it. Leaving the K100D and the K10D fills the line out from bottom to the $1,200. Having 2 additional models to support would have been a problem when the volume was at !0,000 to 12,000 units a month but they are now much highed in unit production. Leaving those gaps makes no sense.
12-13-2007, 02:31 PM   #26
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I'm not a big fan of high ISO speeds, but as I think about it, wouldn't it make sense for Pentax to try to extend their ISO range simply to make their variable ISO mode a much more significant option on their cameras?
12-13-2007, 09:03 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by TaoMaas Quote
I'm not a big fan of high ISO speeds, but as I think about it, wouldn't it make sense for Pentax to try to extend their ISO range simply to make their variable ISO mode a much more significant option on their cameras?
I'd certainly LIKE to see some ISO gains. I cut my teeth in the film era with fast glass and we seem to have lost a couple of F stops on the glass and I'd like it back on the ISO.

Maybe I've already gotten it back, because when I started taking photos any ISO over a 100 was exoticly fast
12-13-2007, 11:29 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by rvannatta Quote
I'd certainly LIKE to see some ISO gains. I cut my teeth in the film era with fast glass and we seem to have lost a couple of F stops on the glass and I'd like it back on the ISO.

Maybe I've already gotten it back, because when I started taking photos any ISO over a 100 was exoticly fast
Yeah. I remember taking pictures in a hockey rink with a #50 bulb and Tri-x, then pushing it to 3200. Grain like golf balls, well, maybe more like hockey pucks.
12-14-2007, 01:44 AM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by CSpronken Quote
You are right, but that's why I'm arguing to run 6 and 10mp sensors in parallel. I think it would have made sense to have 6 and 10mp versions of the K10D and K100DS as well as the new K100D replacement (or perhaps 6 and 14mp with a bigger price difference). Pentax seem to have a history of spreading the use of an imagine pipeline over time, which is smart. I'm saying in additions to that it's also smart to spread it over multiple models, like Nikon does (D40, D40x , D80)

It would be a shame if they really left it, the in body IS is much more significant for entry level customers than it is for (semi-)pro's. Pentax is offering great IS, features, IQ for the money, having no entry level to compete on market share and attract new people to your brand doesn't sound like a good idea to me.
1. Having a unique image pipeline for a new bottom level camera is too expensive - it is more expensive to make a special version of the PRIME to work with 6Mp, than to use the image pipeline from the K10D. The price difference between an 10Mp and 6Mp of the same camera would be too small. Why would anyone buy the 6Mp version when the competition has 10Mp?

2. Pentax sees the K100D as "advanced entry level" or "standard level" (EOS 400D, E-510, D40X) and K110D as "entry level" (D40). There won't be new "entry level" from Pentax, they will start with "standard level". This is below semi-pro. The K10D replacement is semi-pro/pro, not the K100D replacement.

The K100D replacement is very competetive and it has some tricks that I really really doubt that the competition will match, simple because of different philosophy regarding what newcomers to the DSLR world needs and wants. Pentax has made a camera to grow with, and one that can be a nice 2nd body for K10D owners. So it will have some features not traditionally associated with beginner/consumer camera.
12-14-2007, 07:49 PM   #30
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The K100D replacement is very competetive and it has some tricks that I really really doubt that the competition will match, simple because of different philosophy regarding what newcomers to the DSLR world needs and wants. Pentax has made a camera to grow with, and one that can be a nice 2nd body for K10D owners. So it will have some features not traditionally associated with beginner/consumer camera.


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H'mm --- like an interchangable pentaprism and can be replaced with a 6" flat screen for real time viewing....
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