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12-16-2007, 04:50 AM   #31
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Dear Mr Mutley,

I have seen your ongoing dissatisfaction with Pentax from many angles for half a year now.
Please provide the evidence that Pentax autofocus would be faster with ring motors instead of micro motors, or are you just trolling? There is in fact not even evidence that in-lens motors are faster than screwdriven autofocus. In the 90's, Pentax had the fastest autofocus in the tests by the swedish magazine FOTO. Yes, screwdriven Pentax AF compared to Canon USM lenses. Pentax won every time. This clearly shows that it isn't so much the autofocus technique in itself, as the AF algorithms and processing used.

The MZ-3, 5, 10-serie was faster than Canon EOS 50 (even with eye-control turned off!) 500/500N/300. The Z-1p was faster than Canon EOS 10 and 5. FOTO tests AF *indoors* in a controlled invironment.

It is easy to assume that rint motors are the fastest and best solutions, but in real life tests - it all comes down to the AF processing in the camera and not the technology in the lens.

12-16-2007, 08:29 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by mutley Quote
The bodies should always support screw drive AF, and A mount lenses.

Its the lenses that can stand to lose the screw drive, because it is hindering affordable progress and fast operation of upcoming lenses. They have to use cheap, slow micro motors, and charge top dollar for SDM with no faster focusing, but cannot use faster, more efficient ring motors because they have to stuff in all those clunky gears every time.
Prove that.
12-16-2007, 01:44 PM   #33
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Ben: but in all camera reviews, they only use DEFAULT settings.

So I think Pentax should change their K10D default settings philosophy. Current K10D uses normal image tone instead of K100D's vivid/bright image tone. I think K10D should use vivid/bright image tone by default. Afterall, it is less experienced users who would leave everything in default, while the experienced users are going to tinker with all the settings to their likings.

This is very important if K20D is to do well in reviews - their default settings should be to wow the reviewers and inexperienced users; and not to cater for experienced users preference of less processed output regardless of what extra controls they have added.

QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
You have noted some important points. But there are other user specific features that will "Thrill" all of you who have had issues with the present configuration. The amount of user specific control has been enhanced. These new features will allow you to control your camera based on your personal specific needs...Nuf Said.

Ben

12-16-2007, 02:28 PM   #34
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[QUOTE=nosnoop;134862]Ben: but in all camera reviews, they only use DEFAULT settings.

So I think Pentax should change their K10D default settings philosophy. Current K10D uses normal image tone instead of K100D's vivid/bright image tone. I think K10D should use vivid/bright image tone by default. Afterall, it is less experienced users who would leave everything in default, while the experienced users are going to tinker with all the settings to their likings.


I have always thought that reviews using default settings a bit stupid, valid for entry level p&s, but any dslr even entry level is an enthusiast device. In particular the k10d came out and was enthusiast to semi pro level, not even entry level dslr. How many people get a dslr (especially of this level or higher) and only use it at default settings? reviews should look at what is the best for the shot like most users would likely do (and then say this shot at xxx).

from memory the DS and k100d were put down in a number of reviews because they defaulted to bright mode rather than more natural

Phil

12-16-2007, 03:12 PM   #35
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[QUOTE=philmorley;134884]
QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Ben: but in all camera reviews, they only use DEFAULT settings.

So I think Pentax should change their K10D default settings philosophy. Current K10D uses normal image tone instead of K100D's vivid/bright image tone. I think K10D should use vivid/bright image tone by default. Afterall, it is less experienced users who would leave everything in default, while the experienced users are going to tinker with all the settings to their likings.


I have always thought that reviews using default settings a bit stupid, valid for entry level p&s, but any dslr even entry level is an enthusiast device. In particular the k10d came out and was enthusiast to semi pro level, not even entry level dslr. How many people get a dslr (especially of this level or higher) and only use it at default settings? reviews should look at what is the best for the shot like most users would likely do (and then say this shot at xxx).

from memory the DS and k100d were put down in a number of reviews because they defaulted to bright mode rather than more natural

Phil
As a general electronics sales guy and a camera sales guy, you will be surprised how many parents are tired of PnS camera. They buy the entry level of the other two and knows NOTHING about photography. At the price point of the entry level dSLR today, many are buying it because they want better quality. But I understand your point about the higher end models, that most buyer who spend close to $1,000 on the camera will want to get the most out of the camera.

nosnoop does have a very good point about the default settings on the camera. If what he says is true about how many reviewers will leave the camera at default, they should do something about it to make there camera look better for the reviewers. We all know that the reviewers have a BIG influence on the camera. If you go buy a new TV today, most of the TV on the show room floor will be set at a very high contrast, brightness and color because they KNOW that it will be compared to other TVs on the show room floor. Even though that is not the best way to buy a TV, this is how most people shop for there TV, buy the one that is the brightest and sharpest.

I am also interested at what Pentax will bring to the table. I generally follow up with the rumors from this site and the other sites. As expected, the new camera should be better then the older model. I currently have the K100D and it is good enough for me. I will just wait to see what will happen next. If it fits what I want, I will get it, simple as that.

I just hope it can shoot at least 5fps and a built in ice maker would be nice.
12-16-2007, 05:03 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
...I've put a big chunk of my paycheck towards my K20D fund ...
Bugger, so it's going to be expensive if it takes a "big chunk" of your pay packet.


QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
In the 90's, Pentax had the fastest autofocus in the tests by the swedish magazine FOTO. Yes, screwdriven Pentax AF compared to Canon USM lenses. Pentax won every time.
But after comparing the focus speed of a MZ-10 to my istDS, focussing speeds since the 90s have obviously slowed down considerably.
12-16-2007, 06:04 PM   #37
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Thank you Ben, Chris and Roland for your consistant input in regards to the new cameras. You stopped me dead in my tracks from investing in a 40D.

I am looking forward to the "NEW" Pentax cameras, but more important to me the new long lenses.
12-16-2007, 06:37 PM   #38
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So this may be way off base... but why has no camera company yet made a square sensor? It seems to me that you could then maximize the amount of sensor for however large your image circle is. I mean this was most of the reasoning behind Hasselblad using the square format. It's easy enough to just crop your image however you want afterwards, and then you don't have to worry about a vertical grip either. I don't think it would sell well in an entry level camera.... but why not in a prosumer/professional level camera?

12-16-2007, 07:31 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bnack Quote
So this may be way off base... but why has no camera company yet made a square sensor? It seems to me that you could then maximize the amount of sensor for however large your image circle is. I mean this was most of the reasoning behind Hasselblad using the square format. It's easy enough to just crop your image however you want afterwards, and then you don't have to worry about a vertical grip either. I don't think it would sell well in an entry level camera.... but why not in a prosumer/professional level camera?
We went through this in another thread. In a nutshell, the problem with squares is that the weakest area is the corners, and by going with square, you're just maximizing your corners. So, the sensor would have to be either large enough that the corners severely vignette or else there would be no point. And then you've got all of the cost and size issues to match. A rectangle makes a decent compromise, and since you can rotate the whole body 90, you get the virtual advantage of having a "+" shaped sensor at no extra cost.
12-16-2007, 08:33 PM   #40
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As a general electronics sales guy and a camera sales guy, you will be surprised how many parents are tired of PnS camera. They buy the entry level of the other two and knows NOTHING about photography. At the price point of the entry level dSLR today, many are buying it because they want better quality. But I understand your point about the higher end models, that most buyer who spend close to $1,000 on the camera will want to get the most out of the camera.

nosnoop does have a very good point about the default settings on the camera. If what he says is true about how many reviewers will leave the camera at default, they should do something about it to make there camera look better for the reviewers. We all know that the reviewers have a BIG influence on the camera. If you go buy a new TV today, most of the TV on the show room floor will be set at a very high contrast, brightness and color because they KNOW that it will be compared to other TVs on the show room floor. Even though that is not the best way to buy a TV, this is how most people shop for there TV, buy the one that is the brightest and sharpest.

I am also interested at what Pentax will bring to the table. I generally follow up with the rumors from this site and the other sites. As expected, the new camera should be better then the older model. I currently have the K100D and it is good enough for me. I will just wait to see what will happen next. If it fits what I want, I will get it, simple as that.

I just hope it can shoot at least 5fps and a built in ice maker would be nice.[/QUOTE]


Fair enough I bought a philips monitor about 2 months ago and found that brightest & contrast at 100% and saturation at 75% which when you are 2 feet away from hurt my eyes and I turned it all down quickly. I wondered why this was default settings, from 5-10 feet in a line of monitors it would stand out nicely
12-16-2007, 08:43 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
A rectangle makes a decent compromise...
True, however I'd be happier with 1:1.33 ratio (like 645) instead of 1:1.5.
12-16-2007, 09:08 PM   #42
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[QUOTE=Arpe;134964]Bugger, so it's going to be expensive if it takes a "big chunk" of your pay packet.

Having paid very close attention this area of the forum for the past few weeks.

While reading this thread my husband was sneaking a peek over my shoulder at what I was reading. He just sauntered away mumbling "if you want the new one honey you better start selling off some of your better lenses"

I Snapped back "sorry, you better start making more money honey"

Looks like I am going to have to sell a few off. Bummer

Last edited by WendyB; 12-16-2007 at 09:16 PM. Reason: can not spell
12-16-2007, 09:15 PM   #43
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Why couldn't there be a square sensor with sides the same length as the longest side of the APS-C sensor? The lens element is circular, not oval, so why would this vignet if it is center positioned?

With a square sensor you could probably find a focus screen solution for composing in "landscape" or "portrait" or full.

That extra space would be great when cropping on the computer. So often you with you have shot alittle higher or lower, or when in portrait, alittle to the left or right.

There should be of course an option which would let you decide if the to let the camera auto crop the image for you to a regular aspect ratio dependant on what focus mode you used.

This would mean that we would be using a 23.6x23.6 sensor vs. the current 23.6x15.7

That is 556.96mm^2 vs. 370.52mm^2

Last edited by anomaly; 12-16-2007 at 09:24 PM.
12-16-2007, 09:48 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by anomaly Quote
Why couldn't there be a square sensor with sides the same length as the longest side of the APS-C sensor? ...
This would mean that we would be using a 23.6x23.6 sensor vs. the current 23.6x15.7
No, this would mean a larger image circle i.e. you need a larger sensor wafer and larger lenses. To retain the same image circle size, a square sensor would have sides shorter than the longest side of APS-C sensors - more like 20x20. So for people who prefers rectangular shape image size (and majority of consumers who print photos or show them on digital photo frame/monitors/TV), and who are now required to crop every shots, they would lose out on resolution.
12-17-2007, 01:06 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Ben: but in all camera reviews, they only use DEFAULT settings.

I think Ben is pointing out something else, but yes, this is true, and it is a stupid factor of camera reviews.

But, it is just part of the K10D jpg stigma. Sharpness choices of textural ONLY, and no edge when needed, and excessively commented upon is just not producing the results asked for every time. - So... Bright, or Natural, Pentax has decided for us which sharpening is "preferrable", and many (evidently) just don't agree in actual practicality.

Textural sharpening for "filmlike quality" shouldn't be forced on users, but should be included as an added feature which other cameras don't have - along with edge sharpening options (controllable to levels not producing annoying halos, of course) which, then, would eliminate all the jpg sharpness negativity.

Also, the K10D eliminates any choice of NR. The theory is good, so for in-camera processing it MUST be able to be completely turned off for those wanting to post process. But for those needing in-camera processing, even simple control choices for chroma noise leaving luminance noise so details are not smeared - would be a help.

This, along with a higher, less compressed jpg (like they seem to have realized for the K20D - so this comment isn't simple to just dismiss with fanaticism) - would only add to a sense that Pentax considers their in-camera JPG processing very important. (Not a camera just catering to the "Why get a DSLR, and not only shoot RAW?" types)

So, constantly harping on setting the camera to Bright with a bit of adjustment and ALL in-camera jpg conversion accuracy/quality issues are GONE - is just not the case.

This extra adjustability I have posted would be great for the K10D sounds like what Pentax has decided to include for the K20D (or K14D), from what I think Ben is saying. This is great news for buyers of that camera, and seems to have forced itself to Pentax's ears above all the loud posts shutting me up everytime I (and others) have posted about the need for these based on whats doable in-camera to salvage K10D jpg's to top competitive level (not just "good enough").

Great for Pentax to hear this and notice its reality and importance amongst the few loud negations.

As its been established that we don't know the levels of tweakability available to firmware engineers for the Nucore front ends, and Fujitsu backend - hopefully there isn't none, so the K10D will still be in for some further improvements along these lines after they perfect the K20D firmware.

Last edited by mutley; 12-17-2007 at 01:32 AM.
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