The New Pentax Camera...'s

Cambo · 12-21-2007, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by button

Or, how about being able to chose the megapixel count and related ISO performance? Assuming a 14 megapixel sensor, I could see something like this:

Let's say I choose 7 megapixels, which might give me an ISO ceiling of 12,800-25,600, for moving subjects in low light. Later in the day, I switch to 14 megapixles, giving me an ISO ceiling of 3200. Maybe the camera could offer multiple combinations. Maybe the user could configure it on the fly without having to take his/her eye from the viewfinder! I would certainly prefer a super clean 7 megapixels to a noisy 14 in dim light, for a moving subject (ironically, the lower megapixel image in this scenario would look better in large print). I suspect that we'll see some really unexpected innovation like this in late January.

John

all this talk about ISO 25,600 and the like... I'm still wishing they'd bring back ISO 25! I still miss Velvia; I like shooting slow stuff. This iso 200 minimum sucks, and the BIGGEST drawback in digital cameras remains that of dynamic range being nowhere near slide film, and miles away from that of print film, just like it has since the early days of digital; the improvements have been slow and incremental in this regard. Personally, I'm sick of my landscapes having blown-out white skies, with CA all over the trees and the leaves, of whites being blown out with the slightest provocation, and having to composite multiple exposures to get one decent one because the cameras can't handle the dynamic range of even a mild scene in nature, let alone a dramatic one.

I wish they'd spend more R&D money on those problems, rather than 60 fps cameras with noise-free iso 50,000 and 200 megapixels, but with lousy dynamic range.

IMHO.

Merry Christmas or whatever you celebrate, everyone.

Cameron

Last edited by Cambo; 12-21-2007 at 11:01 AM. Reason: spelling

button · 12-21-2007, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Cambo

all this talk about ISO 25,600 and the like... I'm still wishing they'd bring back ISO 25! I still miss Velvia; I like shooting slow stuff. This iso 200 minimum sucks, and the BIGGEST drawback in digital cameras remains that of dynamic range being nowhere near slide film, and miles away from that of print film, just like it has since the early days of digital; the improvements have been slow and incremental in this regard. Personally, I'm sick of my landscapes having blown-out white skies, with CA all over the trees and the leaves, of whites being blown out with the slightest provocation, and having to composite multiple exposures to get one decent one because the cameras can't handle the dynamic range of even a mild scene in nature, let alone a dramatic one.

I wish they'd spend more R&D money on those problems, rather than 60 fps cameras with noise-free iso 50,000 and 200 megapixels, but with lousy dynamic range.

IMHO.

Merry Christmas or whatever you celebrate, everyone.

Cameron

Amen, Cameron. I think the D300 has much of what you (and I as well) want- "active D-lighting" I believe is what they call it for DR compression, plus CA correction (which I also hate), so I don't think that it's too much of a stretch to hope that similar features will appear in the K next D. I didn't really get into photography until last year, at the birth of my daughter, and digital is all I've ever really shot. Just out of curiosity, how does CA on film compare to digital, all else being equal?

John

Cambo · 12-21-2007, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by button

Amen, Cameron. I think the D300 has much of what you (and I as well) want- "active D-lighting" I believe is what they call it for DR compression, plus CA correction (which I also hate), so I don't think that it's too much of a stretch to hope that similar features will appear in the K next D. I didn't really get into photography until last year, at the birth of my daughter, and digital is all I've ever really shot. Just out of curiosity, how does CA on film compare to digital, all else being equal?

John

that's a digital only phenomenon because of the angle of the tiny lenses on the sensor being arranged (apparently) in a perpendicular fashion. It can be corrected in photoshop, but who wants to; the lenses I have are (were) superb on film (FA*), they should be that way in the digital format as far as I'm concerned. It's the digital format that has sucked so far, at certain things, and performed wonderfully in others. I like the smooth, noise free images capable at 'lower' iso's - like 200. Back in the film days, 200 was considered 'High-Speed' film. And I like the slow stuff - I even used to 'pull' Velvia down to iso 40 for a little more saturation and exposure latitude.

It's too bad the industry got caught up in the megapixel wars instead of dynamic range wars. Now we've got 15-20 meg cameras whose dynamic range still sucks compared to film, even 'bad' film.

Hope the next generation of cameras starts to address the areas tha actually need addressing; "iso 12,800 should be enough for anybody" to cynically paraphrase that nitwit who dreamed up the 'Vista' and many other computer disasters.

:ugh:

Cheers,
Cameron

HawaiianOnline · 12-21-2007, 10:16 PM

Ah, it would be great if somebody came up with a sensor with the DR of good negative film.

button · 12-21-2007, 10:16 PM

Originally posted by Cambo

that's a digital only phenomenon because of the angle of the tiny lenses on the sensor being arranged (apparently) in a perpendicular fashion. It can be corrected in photoshop, but who wants to; the lenses I have are (were) superb on film (FA*), they should be that way in the digital format as far as I'm concerned.

That's really good to know. I love my A* 85mm 1.4, but I get some of the worst CA I've ever seen in high contrast areas. If the D300 (and I'm sure the D3) fix it now, we can't be too far away from a similar solution. Maybe even in January...

John

nosnoop · 12-22-2007, 12:05 AM

Originally posted by JMS

That is absolutely incorrect. Binning is simply software interpolation of the image to make it smaller. Noise will have less resolution, but it will have the same proportional area.
The only method I know of for that type of combination is in the Foveon X3 sensor.

Sorry, actually Ray was correct, and you are absolutely incorrect.

Binning can improve the Signal/Noise ratio, reference here:
Glossary: Binning

Binning is what makes Panasonic TZ1 perform so well in low light video despite its fairly high digital still noise; and in fact, it works better in low light than many dedicated video camcorder.

schufosi777 · 12-22-2007, 04:45 AM

My heart is with Pentax. I dont why. Well.. why is my heart with RENAULT. They will never be perfect but I will trust my heart and go with the k20d.

ogl · 12-22-2007, 08:39 AM

Can we all wait SAFOX IX? I think that it's absurd to stay with SAFOX VIII in new cameras.

RMabo · 12-23-2007, 04:54 AM

Originally posted by schufosi777

Well.. why is my heart with RENAULT. .

I'm asking myself the same question

, but I guess - it is about this "it just feels right"-factor, just like Pentax. *<

(Now I'm must be de-icing my Mégane - I call her "Amelie" - (I named my previous Laguna "Georges" but that was too hard to say so it was time for a simpler name when I switched car), and get to the shopping mall to buy the last gifts...)
*<)

Oh, and my K10D is "Fred" by the way. Haha...

bobell69 · 12-23-2007, 08:19 AM

This is my thinking on this topic. I believe when the dust settles after PMA there will be three Pentax SLRs. The K100D super will remain in it's position as the premier entry level camera for folks moving up from their point and shoots.

The second camera will be the replacement of the K10D which will be a 14 megapixel camera but minus a few features that are reserved for the third camera which will be higher end.

My reason for keeping the K100D super is that it was released late in the year just in time for Xmas. Don't see Pentax giving up the sweet spot that it currently holds at this price range until the competition moves beyond it.

rvannatta · 12-23-2007, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by HawaiianOnline

Ah, it would be great if somebody came up with a sensor with the DR of good negative film.

this may well be possible soon. Suppose you have a 20mp sensor which is able to split
itself in 3 layers if you will, and take 3 images at the same time at 6 mp (at different ISO's.

The ultimate bracket exposure. Now a computer, either on or off camera could reconstruct
the image. Not a replacement for simply having pixels that have the full range in the first place, but the ability of photoshop to draw from a darker image would greatly help fix the burned out areas.

Cambo · 12-23-2007, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by rvannatta

this may well be possible soon. Suppose you have a 20mp sensor which is able to split
itself in 3 layers if you will, and take 3 images at the same time at 6 mp (at different ISO's.

The ultimate bracket exposure. Now a computer, either on or off camera could reconstruct
the image. Not a replacement for simply having pixels that have the full range in the first place, but the ability of photoshop to draw from a darker image would greatly help fix the burned out areas.

onboard compositing - brilliant! Let's hope it's already in the Hoya Christmas camera.

Merry Christmas or whatever you celebrate, everyone,
Cameron

rvannatta · 12-23-2007, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Cambo

onboard compositing - brilliant! Let's hope it's already in the Hoya Christmas camera.

Merry Christmas or whatever you celebrate, everyone,
Cameron

Well, I guess we will see. A seriously wider dynamic range would be preferred, but the ability
to grab several photos at the same moment would give some meaning to bracketing.

HawaiianOnline · 12-23-2007, 05:48 PM

Actually, I would trade negative film dynamic range for negative film latitude. Blown highlights are starting to piss me off. Pretty much any landscape with white clouds in it results in blown clouds for me. Neutral grads are great, but if there happens to be a tall tree, mountain, or some other vertical element in the landscape...

ogl · 12-23-2007, 11:00 PM

Release will be on January, 11-15

12-21-2007, 11:01 AM	#91
Cambo Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,016	You know... Originally posted by button Or, how about being able to chose the megapixel count and related ISO performance? Assuming a 14 megapixel sensor, I could see something like this: Let's say I choose 7 megapixels, which might give me an ISO ceiling of 12,800-25,600, for moving subjects in low light. Later in the day, I switch to 14 megapixles, giving me an ISO ceiling of 3200. Maybe the camera could offer multiple combinations. Maybe the user could configure it on the fly without having to take his/her eye from the viewfinder! I would certainly prefer a super clean 7 megapixels to a noisy 14 in dim light, for a moving subject (ironically, the lower megapixel image in this scenario would look better in large print). I suspect that we'll see some really unexpected innovation like this in late January. John all this talk about ISO 25,600 and the like... I'm still wishing they'd bring back ISO 25! I still miss Velvia; I like shooting slow stuff. This iso 200 minimum sucks, and the BIGGEST drawback in digital cameras remains that of dynamic range being nowhere near slide film, and miles away from that of print film, just like it has since the early days of digital; the improvements have been slow and incremental in this regard. Personally, I'm sick of my landscapes having blown-out white skies, with CA all over the trees and the leaves, of whites being blown out with the slightest provocation, and having to composite multiple exposures to get one decent one because the cameras can't handle the dynamic range of even a mild scene in nature, let alone a dramatic one. I wish they'd spend more R&D money on those problems, rather than 60 fps cameras with noise-free iso 50,000 and 200 megapixels, but with lousy dynamic range. IMHO. Merry Christmas or whatever you celebrate, everyone. Cameron Last edited by Cambo; 12-21-2007 at 11:01 AM. Reason: spelling

12-21-2007, 08:43 PM	#93
Cambo Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,016	There was no CA on film... Originally posted by button Amen, Cameron. I think the D300 has much of what you (and I as well) want- "active D-lighting" I believe is what they call it for DR compression, plus CA correction (which I also hate), so I don't think that it's too much of a stretch to hope that similar features will appear in the K next D. I didn't really get into photography until last year, at the birth of my daughter, and digital is all I've ever really shot. Just out of curiosity, how does CA on film compare to digital, all else being equal? John that's a digital only phenomenon because of the angle of the tiny lenses on the sensor being arranged (apparently) in a perpendicular fashion. It can be corrected in photoshop, but who wants to; the lenses I have are (were) superb on film (FA*), they should be that way in the digital format as far as I'm concerned. It's the digital format that has sucked so far, at certain things, and performed wonderfully in others. I like the smooth, noise free images capable at 'lower' iso's - like 200. Back in the film days, 200 was considered 'High-Speed' film. And I like the slow stuff - I even used to 'pull' Velvia down to iso 40 for a little more saturation and exposure latitude. It's too bad the industry got caught up in the megapixel wars instead of dynamic range wars. Now we've got 15-20 meg cameras whose dynamic range still sucks compared to film, even 'bad' film. Hope the next generation of cameras starts to address the areas tha actually need addressing; "iso 12,800 should be enough for anybody" to cynically paraphrase that nitwit who dreamed up the 'Vista' and many other computer disasters. :ugh: Cheers, Cameron

12-23-2007, 08:19 AM	#100
bobell69 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Courtenay BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 498	The New Pentax Cameras This is my thinking on this topic. I believe when the dust settles after PMA there will be three Pentax SLRs. The K100D super will remain in it's position as the premier entry level camera for folks moving up from their point and shoots. The second camera will be the replacement of the K10D which will be a 14 megapixel camera but minus a few features that are reserved for the third camera which will be higher end. My reason for keeping the K100D super is that it was released late in the year just in time for Xmas. Don't see Pentax giving up the sweet spot that it currently holds at this price range until the competition moves beyond it.

12-23-2007, 12:37 PM	#102
Cambo Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Vancouver, BC Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,016	That'd work... Originally posted by rvannatta this may well be possible soon. Suppose you have a 20mp sensor which is able to split itself in 3 layers if you will, and take 3 images at the same time at 6 mp (at different ISO's. The ultimate bracket exposure. Now a computer, either on or off camera could reconstruct the image. Not a replacement for simply having pixels that have the full range in the first place, but the ability of photoshop to draw from a darker image would greatly help fix the burned out areas. onboard compositing - brilliant! Let's hope it's already in the Hoya Christmas camera. Merry Christmas or whatever you celebrate, everyone, Cameron

12-23-2007, 11:00 PM	#105
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Release will be on January, 11-15 Last edited by ogl; 12-23-2007 at 11:06 PM.

12-21-2007, 03:10 PM	#92
button Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 241	Originally posted by Cambo all this talk about ISO 25,600 and the like... I'm still wishing they'd bring back ISO 25! I still miss Velvia; I like shooting slow stuff. This iso 200 minimum sucks, and the BIGGEST drawback in digital cameras remains that of dynamic range being nowhere near slide film, and miles away from that of print film, just like it has since the early days of digital; the improvements have been slow and incremental in this regard. Personally, I'm sick of my landscapes having blown-out white skies, with CA all over the trees and the leaves, of whites being blown out with the slightest provocation, and having to composite multiple exposures to get one decent one because the cameras can't handle the dynamic range of even a mild scene in nature, let alone a dramatic one. I wish they'd spend more R&D money on those problems, rather than 60 fps cameras with noise-free iso 50,000 and 200 megapixels, but with lousy dynamic range. IMHO. Merry Christmas or whatever you celebrate, everyone. Cameron Amen, Cameron. I think the D300 has much of what you (and I as well) want- "active D-lighting" I believe is what they call it for DR compression, plus CA correction (which I also hate), so I don't think that it's too much of a stretch to hope that similar features will appear in the K next D. I didn't really get into photography until last year, at the birth of my daughter, and digital is all I've ever really shot. Just out of curiosity, how does CA on film compare to digital, all else being equal? John

12-21-2007, 10:16 PM	#94
HawaiianOnline Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hawaii Posts: 613	Ah, it would be great if somebody came up with a sensor with the DR of good negative film.

12-21-2007, 10:16 PM	#95
button Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 241	Originally posted by Cambo that's a digital only phenomenon because of the angle of the tiny lenses on the sensor being arranged (apparently) in a perpendicular fashion. It can be corrected in photoshop, but who wants to; the lenses I have are (were) superb on film (FA), they should be that way in the digital format as far as I'm concerned. That's really good to know. I love my A 85mm 1.4, but I get some of the worst CA I've ever seen in high contrast areas. If the D300 (and I'm sure the D3) fix it now, we can't be too far away from a similar solution. Maybe even in January... John

12-22-2007, 12:05 AM	#96
nosnoop Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,299	Originally posted by JMS That is absolutely incorrect. Binning is simply software interpolation of the image to make it smaller. Noise will have less resolution, but it will have the same proportional area. The only method I know of for that type of combination is in the Foveon X3 sensor. Sorry, actually Ray was correct, and you are absolutely incorrect. Binning can improve the Signal/Noise ratio, reference here: Glossary: Binning Binning is what makes Panasonic TZ1 perform so well in low light video despite its fairly high digital still noise; and in fact, it works better in low light than many dedicated video camcorder.

12-22-2007, 04:45 AM	#97
schufosi777 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Kitakyushu Posts: 186	My heart is with Pentax. I dont why. Well.. why is my heart with RENAULT. They will never be perfect but I will trust my heart and go with the k20d.

12-22-2007, 08:39 AM	#98
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Can we all wait SAFOX IX? I think that it's absurd to stay with SAFOX VIII in new cameras.

12-23-2007, 04:54 AM	#99
RMabo Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 845	Originally posted by schufosi777 Well.. why is my heart with RENAULT. . I'm asking myself the same question , but I guess - it is about this "it just feels right"-factor, just like Pentax. < (Now I'm must be de-icing my Mégane - I call her "Amelie" - (I named my previous Laguna "Georges" but that was too hard to say so it was time for a simpler name when I switched car), and get to the shopping mall to buy the last gifts...) <) Oh, and my K10D is "Fred" by the way. Haha...

12-23-2007, 09:27 AM	#101
rvannatta Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Apiary, Oregon Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,181	Originally posted by HawaiianOnline Ah, it would be great if somebody came up with a sensor with the DR of good negative film. this may well be possible soon. Suppose you have a 20mp sensor which is able to split itself in 3 layers if you will, and take 3 images at the same time at 6 mp (at different ISO's. The ultimate bracket exposure. Now a computer, either on or off camera could reconstruct the image. Not a replacement for simply having pixels that have the full range in the first place, but the ability of photoshop to draw from a darker image would greatly help fix the burned out areas.

12-23-2007, 03:00 PM	#103
rvannatta Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Apiary, Oregon Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,181	Originally posted by Cambo onboard compositing - brilliant! Let's hope it's already in the Hoya Christmas camera. Merry Christmas or whatever you celebrate, everyone, Cameron Well, I guess we will see. A seriously wider dynamic range would be preferred, but the ability to grab several photos at the same moment would give some meaning to bracketing.

12-23-2007, 05:48 PM	#104
HawaiianOnline Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Hawaii Posts: 613	Actually, I would trade negative film dynamic range for negative film latitude. Blown highlights are starting to piss me off. Pretty much any landscape with white clouds in it results in blown clouds for me. Neutral grads are great, but if there happens to be a tall tree, mountain, or some other vertical element in the landscape...

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