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12-18-2007, 07:20 PM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
The problem with Canon is that many of their cameras aren't really groundbreaking. They opt for small incremental upgrades rather than something very dramatic.
Exactly why Canon won't be the market leader for long. They are a great camera company, they have great cameras, they have great lenses, but they lack true innovation and the inspiration to move forward into the future.

Their best selling point is X FPS, fast AF and a great lens lineup. After taking the huge leap in the market share all they've done is adding great features to their top two cameras and dropping them down slowly to there entry level models. Their new lenses have always been low updates to the entry level and really expensive top of the line L series that most of the time don't beat anything Pentax or Nikon have.

Sony (Konica-Minolta) is the only other camera company with an R&D team just blistering with innovation. Between Pentax and Minolta everyone else hasn't done so much for the camera industry in terms of great features. Sony being a massive organization and Pentax being a hole in the wall compared to Sony. Even with the big money gap between the two companies I believe Pentax will bring back some of that marvelous innovative fronts from the past.

We shall a few of those innovations in the next Pentax body and all the other companies will be like, "what the h*&^!" It will make everyone else rush to bring something forward and hopefully in that fraction of time from the K20D releases and the next camera to stomp it out they will gain a substantial market share so they can continue to work on finishing a true Pro Body and a replacement to the replacement!

I'm taking a wild stab in the air that by the end of next year we shall be hearing some amazing things from the Pentax camp.

12-18-2007, 07:30 PM   #32
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It sort've seems that Canon has just floated along on the current it created with the original Digital Rebel... correct me if I'm wrong.
12-18-2007, 08:21 PM   #33
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"I'm taking a wild stab in the air that by the end of next year we shall be hearing some amazing things from the Pentax camp."

If you didn't mean to say next month, then might as well forget it!
12-18-2007, 08:39 PM   #34
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matthew Roberts Quote
It sort've seems that Canon has just floated along on the current it created with the original Digital Rebel... correct me if I'm wrong.
Aside from the 5D, I'd agree. They took a HUGE leap in producing a Full-frame camera that doesn't cost 8 grand and blew the socks off of everyone else for low-noise performance at that price point, a major coup for wedding and portrait photographers. However, that was what, 2 years ago? Times have changed, and the 5D hasn't.

12-18-2007, 09:02 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom Lusk Quote
"I'm taking a wild stab in the air that by the end of next year we shall be hearing some amazing things from the Pentax camp."

If you didn't mean to say next month, then might as well forget it!
Maybe I was speaking of other news... so I won't change my statement!

QuoteOriginally posted by clawhamemr Quote
Aside from the 5D, I'd agree. They took a HUGE leap in producing a Full-frame camera that doesn't cost 8 grand and blew the socks off of everyone else for low-noise performance at that price point, a major coup for wedding and portrait photographers. However, that was what, 2 years ago? Times have changed, and the 5D hasn't.
5D was 30 months ago actually
12-18-2007, 09:14 PM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Maybe I was speaking of other news... so I won't change my statement!



5D was 30 months ago actually
My understanding is that Canon have sold most of their 5Ds at a loss and are still struggling to empty the warehouses of existing stock. Apart from the sensor, the rest of the camera is just a 30D with a lower frame rate and no onboard flash. Hardly a $3000 body.

It was easily outsold by the D200 in the UK even though the latter was only 30% cheaper (with the Canon rebate) and less if you decided to buy the Nikon RAW software.

Moreover, I know quite a few pros who are less convinced about the 5Ds variability in colour response.
12-18-2007, 09:52 PM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
My understanding is that Canon have sold most of their 5Ds at a loss and are still struggling to empty the warehouses of existing stock. Apart from the sensor, the rest of the camera is just a 30D with a lower frame rate and no onboard flash. Hardly a $3000 body.

It was easily outsold by the D200 in the UK even though the latter was only 30% cheaper (with the Canon rebate) and less if you decided to buy the Nikon RAW software.

Moreover, I know quite a few pros who are less convinced about the 5Ds variability in colour response.
You've heard what I've heard... sad to have a full warehouse after 30 months eh? Pentax can't say that about K10D's!
12-19-2007, 02:03 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
My understanding is that Canon have sold most of their 5Ds at a loss and are still struggling to empty the warehouses of existing stock. Apart from the sensor, the rest of the camera is just a 30D with a lower frame rate and no onboard flash. Hardly a $3000 body.

It was easily outsold by the D200 in the UK even though the latter was only 30% cheaper (with the Canon rebate) and less if you decided to buy the Nikon RAW software.

Moreover, I know quite a few pros who are less convinced about the 5Ds variability in colour response.
And no scene modes either, definite case for an extremely generous discount

12-19-2007, 04:36 PM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by codiac2600 Quote
Sony (Konica-Minolta) is the only other camera company with an R&D team just blistering with innovation. Between Pentax and Minolta everyone else hasn't done so much for the camera industry in terms of great features. Sony being a massive organization and Pentax being a hole in the wall compared to Sony. Even with the big money gap between the two companies I believe Pentax will bring back some of that marvelous innovative fronts from the past.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. From what I gather, most of Pentax's innovations and pioneering ideas came back in the film era. Looking at their latest cameras (the K1xxD series and the K10D), most of the features these had are features that are already existing with other models. In-body stabilization? Konica-Minolta. Dust buster? Olympus. Weather sealing? I think either Canon or Nikon was the first. What's innovative is how Pentax has managed to cram all these features in at an attractive price. It speaks about their efficient manufacturing, which would only be further helped by Hoya's input from this point on.

Of course, maybe Pentax just didn't have capital enough to put the innovations they have into their current crop of cameras. The 645D comes to mind.

My thought: Pentax's true strength are their lenses, what with the pancake lenses and Limiteds. Those are truly outstanding pieces of engineering, and sets Pentax apart from other manufacturers.

As for other companies blistering with innovation (based on recent performance), I submit the following: Nikon, Sony, and Olympus, in no particular order.

Nikon, for the wonderful high-ISO feat they have achieved with the D3, and the intended/unintended idea that the D3 implies: that pixel count is not the end-all and be-all of image quality. The D300 doesn't strike me as that ground-breaking, though. It's more of an update to the D200, albeit a much bigger update than the 30D to 40D update.

Sony, for the work they did on the D300/A700 CMOS chip, which, in performance, is now almost of a dead heat to Canon's CMOS APS-C chip. And the eye-start + grip AF is also quite handy, improving on the eye-start technology the A100 had (though I think Canon had something like this way back in one of their film SLRs). I'm sure Sony has other tricks up its sleeve, which I'm guessing would be better integration of their DSLRs to other pieces of electronics (HDTVs, wireless stuff, GPS, etc.), Sony being an electronics giant with different specializations. I won't be too surprised if they found a way to integrate the PSP with their future DSLRs for reasons that are beyond me as of the moment.

Olympus (this should actually read as Panalympus or something), for achieving what they did with the E-3, great high ISO performance in a much smaller sensor than what the others use. Of course, there's also the dust buster they pioneered and the live view that critics were laughing at back then, but are now being included by other manufacturers. The telecentric lens concept was also innovative for me.

It is Canon who has lost their way recently, and I agree that the last innovation they had was the 5D. I suspect the upcoming XTi upgrade would be more of an incremental upgrade (MP count boost plus live view) than something groundbreaking. I'll reserve judgment about the 5D upgrade, as I really don't know what Canon intends with that now that the D3 is out.

Pentax, from all accounts, looks to be in good shape. I'm waiting to see what they have in store for us, but basing on the enthusiasm shown by Ben, Chris, Marc, and other NDA'd people, they look to have some wonderful ideas.
12-20-2007, 01:13 AM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. From what I gather, most of Pentax's innovations and pioneering ideas came back in the film era. Looking at their latest cameras (the K1xxD series and the K10D), most of the features these had are features that are already existing with other models. In-body stabilization? Konica-Minolta.
Actually, Pentax has the patent of in-body stabilization well before KM, just that they don't have the cash to put it in a body at that time. And you have not given Pentax enough credit for their clever HyperProgram and HyperManual; and Sv/TAV modes; and Av/Tv modes with direct adjustment of ISO. But you are not alone though. Almost no reviews pay any attention to these very useful and innovative handling features which I use every day.
12-20-2007, 03:09 AM   #41
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Re:

I correct my earlier post, On Jan 24 if Canon wont announce anything substantive short of a 5d replacement, then Pentax (considering all the excitement Ben, Codiac and the gang "In the know" have shown) doesnt need to get worried.
12-20-2007, 05:24 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by vinzer Quote
Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. From what I gather, most of Pentax's innovations and pioneering ideas came back in the film era. Looking at their latest cameras (the K1xxD series and the K10D), most of the features these had are features that are already existing with other models. In-body stabilization? Konica-Minolta. Dust buster? Olympus. Weather sealing? I think either Canon or Nikon was the first. What's innovative is how Pentax has managed to cram all these features in at an attractive price. It speaks about their efficient manufacturing, which would only be further helped by Hoya's input from this point on.

Of course, maybe Pentax just didn't have capital enough to put the innovations they have into their current crop of cameras. The 645D comes to mind.

My thought: Pentax's true strength are their lenses, what with the pancake lenses and Limiteds. Those are truly outstanding pieces of engineering, and sets Pentax apart from other manufacturers.

As for other companies blistering with innovation (based on recent performance), I submit the following: Nikon, Sony, and Olympus, in no particular order.

Nikon, for the wonderful high-ISO feat they have achieved with the D3, and the intended/unintended idea that the D3 implies: that pixel count is not the end-all and be-all of image quality. The D300 doesn't strike me as that ground-breaking, though. It's more of an update to the D200, albeit a much bigger update than the 30D to 40D update.

Sony, for the work they did on the D300/A700 CMOS chip, which, in performance, is now almost of a dead heat to Canon's CMOS APS-C chip. And the eye-start + grip AF is also quite handy, improving on the eye-start technology the A100 had (though I think Canon had something like this way back in one of their film SLRs). I'm sure Sony has other tricks up its sleeve, which I'm guessing would be better integration of their DSLRs to other pieces of electronics (HDTVs, wireless stuff, GPS, etc.), Sony being an electronics giant with different specializations. I won't be too surprised if they found a way to integrate the PSP with their future DSLRs for reasons that are beyond me as of the moment.

Olympus (this should actually read as Panalympus or something), for achieving what they did with the E-3, great high ISO performance in a much smaller sensor than what the others use. Of course, there's also the dust buster they pioneered and the live view that critics were laughing at back then, but are now being included by other manufacturers. The telecentric lens concept was also innovative for me.

It is Canon who has lost their way recently, and I agree that the last innovation they had was the 5D. I suspect the upcoming XTi upgrade would be more of an incremental upgrade (MP count boost plus live view) than something groundbreaking. I'll reserve judgment about the 5D upgrade, as I really don't know what Canon intends with that now that the D3 is out.

Pentax, from all accounts, looks to be in good shape. I'm waiting to see what they have in store for us, but basing on the enthusiasm shown by Ben, Chris, Marc, and other NDA'd people, they look to have some wonderful ideas.
I did state what they came up with and it was all film based innovations in the modern camera.

Pentax invented in lens IS as well as in body before KM used it.

Sony hasn't invented squat since they acquired KM!!! Everyone know KM would have released the A100 without Sony and the A700 is again another body KM would have released but jumped ship. Like I stated Minolta and Pentax have been the largest innovators of camera technology. Sony is a company doomed by the Canon disease of my name sells my products.

Sony's new sensor is no where near Canons APS-C senor especially when you consider an underexposed shot that has to be corrected. The Soy chip is a step forward for Sony and Nikon, but it's not even close to Canon's IMO because the detail and sharpness still goes Canon.

Nikon's D3 high ISO noise is more than a 5D and the IQ is less, so how is this a step forward? Actually ISO 200 is noisier than Canons 5D...

I believe Nikon put a bunch of great features in a really expensive camera at a massive premium again. Some of that technology was Nikons own advances like the leveling in the viewfinder and the massively editable custom functions. Other than that it's a light upgrade. I haven't handled a D3 but customers have brought me in sample pictures to peak at and they are much better than people on DPR make them out to be, but there is still much room for improvement compared to a 1Ds MKII/1Ds MKIIn/ 1Ds MKIII/5D. The colour was stunning compared to the like the 5D which has always been a bit blah to me, but the rendition was les desirable.

Olympus is innovative, but 4:3 is an innovation backwards. Yes lets take a P&S sensor and stick it in a SLR?! The sensor clean was theirs and they do it the best. Small bodies is another Olympus feature as well as live view in an SLR.

And what innovations did Pentax put into there K series digital cameras?

Well first the SR system is twice as effective as anything else on the market at the time and they did it differently than Olympus plus it's quieter and more efficient. Then we have weather sealing in a sub $1000 body which may not seem like innovation, but it truly is groundbreaking for the industry. Digital SLR with the largest backwards compatibility with legacy lenses. They added the ability for SDM lenses which is an innovation for Pentax.

The K20D will be much more innovative with most regards to the sensor technology so maybe we should wait to give more examples come January
12-22-2007, 05:36 PM   #43
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Hyper Program! I knew I botched up at some point. Yes, Hyper Program really is something.

I didn't know about the SR patent being applied for longer than KM, though. My bad.

In any case, the march towards the K20D goes on. I'm antsy thinking what new stuff Pentax has in store for us. New sensor technology is good. It would finally release Pentax from the Sony bottleneck in production and R&D.
12-22-2007, 09:53 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeff1101 Quote
Exactly, why Jan 24? They could have announced it Jan21 or even a week earlier. I think they are definitely trying to up one on Pentax. If they announced earlier they'd be old new by the time Pentax make its announcement. (Although a 5D replacement is definitely nothing to sneeze at. They could be in the news for months after)

Tsssk, Tssk looks bad for Pentax, they should definitely reschedule their announcement. The question is when should they do it?

It's the down side of having the announcment date of Pentax leaked ahead of time.
give the other guys a chance to try to steal the thunder and all the editors will
take the canon press release and the Pentax press release and write them into one article and put the Canon first.

I'll be you pentax tinkers with their date a little,--- or keeps the date but has
an 'authorized leak' a few days ahead.... so they can try to get a press headline
instead of an 'also released' subtitle on the bottom of a rephrased canon press release.
12-23-2007, 05:16 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by rvannatta Quote
It's the down side of having the announcment date of Pentax leaked ahead of time.
give the other guys a chance to try to steal the thunder and all the editors will
take the canon press release and the Pentax press release and write them into one article and put the Canon first.

I'll be you pentax tinkers with their date a little,--- or keeps the date but has
an 'authorized leak' a few days ahead.... so they can try to get a press headline
instead of an 'also released' subtitle on the bottom of a rephrased canon press release.
Everything is just fine....

No Worries..."Don't Worry...Be Happy!"
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