[eddie1960]

What debacle?

it took so long to come out after it was considered vapourware by many(it was known under development for eons and had been shelved at one point). then when it was announced release was delayed.
Mind you once it did come out any complaints disappeared pretty damn fast
Still much better to keep a lid on things and have it ready to go IMO

There is something to be said for some of the leaks building hype you just can't leave it forever (Certainly Fuji managed it very well with the X100 and demand is still huge)

[bobmaxja]

Leaks are part of marketing strategy now to create hype.
They could be intentional leaks to find what will attract the early adopter.

[philbaum]

As I've been saying; "In between the K-5 and D700 in size" brings a sexiness and appeal that we know creates buzz and sells cameras on it's own, above and beyond certain other important specs (see: Fuji X100)

Also, this FF body, if it's real, means Ricoh has a deal, or is in the process of inking an FF sensor deal with Sony Semiconductor. Something certain folks were convinced wouldn't happen, because Nikon wouldn't allow it, or something...
.

There is a financial logic for Sony to continue to sell sensors, the exmor sensors and the FF, to Pentax despite any resistance from Nikon (i think). The reasons are this:

a) Pentax is 7% of SLR sales in Japan, something less worldwide. Thats large enough not to be ignored.

b) If Sony were to shut out Pentax, then those sales would likely go to another provider such as Samsung, or some other provider, and no company wants to help create more competition.

c) The biggest reason: Sony would prefer Nikon to not be their sole external buyer because that gives Nikon a bigger leaverage on what they have to pay for their sensors. Having 2 external companies vie for their sensors allow them to pit one company against another for top prices. Its a healthier market for Sony. Would Nikon become so angry at Sony that they would leave Sony sensors because of Pentax? I don't think they will anytime soon. With the Japan tsunami disaster, there is enough problems on Nikon's plate without trying a risky departure from Sony. Besides, Sony sensors have helped Nikon fare quite well versus Canon, i think (don't know for sure)

In a pure capitalistic environment, i'm just saying it makes sense for Sony to sell sensors of any kind to Pentax.

[jsherman999]

Well stated, points I've been making all along as well.

There is a financial logic for Sony to continue to sell sensors, the exmor sensors and the FF, to Pentax despite any resistance from Nikon (i think). The reasons are this:

a) Pentax is 7% of SLR sales in Japan, something less worldwide. Thats large enough not to be ignored.

Sony Semiconductor may want to get into a tight relationship with Ricoh for other reasons as well. Ricoh is something like twice the size of Nikon, and they may have imaging needs in other areas that Sony could help address... Think about the portion of the Ricoh announcement where they mentioned using 645D technology in their new archival products.

b) If Sony were to shut out Pentax, then those sales would likely go to another provider such as Samsung, or some other provider, and no company wants to help create more competition.

Samsung and Fuji are big possibilities. Aptina is also a player few talk about, but reportedly have some tech that folks like, and there are others.

c) The biggest reason: Sony would prefer Nikon to not be their sole external buyer because that gives Nikon a bigger leaverage on what they have to pay for their sensors. Having 2 external companies vie for their sensors allow them to pit one company against another for top prices. Its a healthier market for Sony.

And safer. Nikon has the ability to do some level of sensor design and fab work themselves - they could perhaps decide to just completely move away from Sony at some point.

Would Nikon become so angry at Sony that they would leave Sony sensors because of Pentax? I don't think they will anytime soon. With the Japan tsunami disaster, there is enough problems on Nikon's plate without trying a risky departure from Sony. Besides, Sony sensors have helped Nikon fare quite well versus Canon, i think (don't know for sure)

Yes, that partnership has helped Nikon. A Pentax emergence in FF has just as much potential to take sales from Canon as anyone else. I doubt Nikon would try to leverage anything out of 'anger', because that's simply bad business.

And as I've said before: Ricoh and Canon are bloody rivals in copiers. Nikon and Canon are bloody rivals in imaging. When Ricoh/Nikon/Sony have a common rival in Canon, things can work themselves out.


.

---

Last edited by jsherman999; 12-14-2011 at 11:04 PM.

[joe.penn]

Ricoh and Canon are bloody rivals in copiers

Ricoh's competition is Sharp and Canon is nowhere in that equation; Canon is actually light-years behind in the commercial industry - for commercial copiers that is...

[jsherman999]

Ricoh's competition is Sharp and Canon is nowhere in that equation; Canon is actually light-years behind in the commercial industry - for commercial copiers that is...

.

Interesting, what's your source for that? In one of the articles that came out after the Pentax acquisition, it was mentioned that Canon and Ricoh were bitter rivals in many worldwide commercial printer/copier markets.

See this: LINK. Look in the 'top competitors' section in the lower right - Canon is the first company listed.

Then there's this:

"..Canon's largest division in terms of revenue is its multifunction copier division. Many of the sweeping changes during the "Digital Revolution" in the industry were invented by Canon. This has enabled Canon to hold the highest market share in the industry for 26 of the last 27 years. Canon distributes ... professional grade imageRUNNER series through subsidiary Canon Business Solutions and independent distributors. The professional grade series ranges from small table tops to large digital presses."




.

[Class A]

these guys usually are annoying , but on this one I think they are right

These guys are always annoying. They do not know how to distinguish between front focus and lack of sharpness. They fail to understand that the Nikon D7000 is modelled after the K-7, i.e., that Nikon followed Pentax, not the other way round.

Theses guys are just clowns and only mildly funny at that.

[Aegon]

I've always thought that Sony also benefitted from cross licensing with Pentax, including licenses for Shake Reduction, some lens coating improvements, and whatever else they've negotiated for.

(Not provided from a source, but I know a bit about licensing and patents and this is just the type of thing that occasionally happens).

[joe.penn]

nteresting, what's your source for that?

A buddy of mine owns a Sharp outlet in Jersey (one of the largest in the country) and I was a developer under Sharps OSA program so it comes from working with them (well, working with Sharp and being pit against Ricoh). Also, Canon's MFC's are your normal "go to office depot and staples to get" products, they are hardly professional grade. They may be a competitor in consumer/small business division, but by far no competitor in the large corporate division. Looking at the links, Canon is still new in the large commercial business, looks like they are only 4 years into it thus far...

[jsherman999]

A buddy of mine owns a Sharp outlet in Jersey (one of the largest in the country) and I was a developer under Sharps OSA program so it comes from working with them (well, working with Sharp and being pit against Ricoh). Also, Canon's MFC's are your normal "go to office depot and staples to get" products, they are hardly professional grade. They may be a competitor in consumer/small business division, but by far no competitor in the large corporate division.

.

It's possible that you're not seeing more than the local market. Canon does seem to have an established B2B channel, and is listed as one of Ricoh's top global competitors by Yahoo Finance, and Ricoh is listed as one of Canon's top competitors on Canon's Yahoo Finance summary page

Here's an account of another battle in that apparently great corporate war we now find ourselves involved in:

"...Ricoh last October bought major U.S. office equipment distributor Ikon Office Solutions for $1.6 billion, delivering a heavy blow to Canon, whose machines had represented 60 percent of the products Ikon handled before the October acquisition but have rapidly been replaced with Ricoh equipment since then...'"

Now, think about that Ikon acquisition for a moment relative to the Pentax deal - Ricoh bought Pentax for only $124 Million. Laying down another $50 million on top of that investment to roll out more lenses and deliver a FF body is not something Ricoh C-level execs would even lose sleep over. It's simply a one-rank pawn move in an ongoing global chess match.


(Pentax Imaging is the baby )



.

.

[maxfield_photo]

Now, think about that Ikon acquisition for a moment relative to the Pentax deal - Ricoh bought Pentax for only $124 Million. Laying down another $50 million on top of that investment to roll out more lenses and deliver a FF body is not something Ricoh C-level execs would even lose sleep over. It's simply a one-rank pawn move in an ongoing global chess match.

I agree, rich Uncle Ricoh has deep pockets. I wonder what he's getting his new nephew for Christmas?

[ogl]

.
"..Canon's largest division in terms of revenue is its multifunction copier division. Many of the sweeping changes during the "Digital Revolution" in the industry were invented by Canon. This has enabled Canon to hold the highest market share in the industry for 26 of the last 27 years. Canon distributes ... professional grade imageRUNNER series through subsidiary Canon Business Solutions and independent distributors. The professional grade series ranges from small table tops to large digital presses."
.

Ricoh's machines are middle and high end class photocopiers, with very high mean time between failures (MTBF), Canon is behind.
The reputation of Ricoh is much higher than Canon in the companies with heavy usage of copying equipment.

[MSM]

.

Here's an account of another battle in that apparently great corporate war we now find ourselves involved in:

"...Ricoh last October bought major U.S. office equipment distributor Ikon Office Solutions for $1.6 billion, delivering a heavy blow to Canon, whose machines had represented 60 percent of the products Ikon handled before the October acquisition but have rapidly been replaced with Ricoh equipment since then...'"

Now, think about that Ikon acquisition for a moment relative to the Pentax deal - Ricoh bought Pentax for only $124 Million. Laying down another $50 million on top of that investment to roll out more lenses and deliver a FF body is not something Ricoh C-level execs would even lose sleep over. It's simply a one-rank pawn move in an ongoing global chess match.




.

Interesting point Jay. I Know One Name (IKON) just replaced hundreds of Canon printers/faxes with Ricoh this past year at my Hospital. I did have to smile just a bit. This was before the Pentax buyout from Hoya.

.

[rawr]

Interesting to hear that Ricoh is an aggressive competitor. They have also won several prestigious Deming Prizes (for quality improvement) over the years.

Aggressive competitor, good quality, deep pockets, extensive sales and distribution network - sounds good for Pentax.

[Zygonyx]

.. extensive sales and distribution network - sounds good for Pentax.

Hello,
i wouldn't be that much affirmative re. existing Pentax/Hoya inherited photo or even Ricoh's consumer oriented photo networks...
In France, many Hi-tech big names and even specialized photo labels/networks don't even present any Pentax or Ricoh product in their shops... at least for some of them, despite referencing the products in their catalogues...
I think this network development and credibility is THE big job that has to be done if Pentax/Ricoh aim at gaining more consumer visibility, hence market shares.