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12-20-2011, 08:52 PM   #301
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
If they break from K-mount completely, why do you care what they do more than you care what Fuji does, or Panasonic, or Samsung, or Sony, or Canon, or Nikon?

Are you loyal to the Pentax name itself?


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I'm not sure blind loyalty to a brand is a good idea. I've used Pentax for years. But to be honest the last couple of years I other companies are doing more interesting things with cameras. Now I think Pentax will be a better brand with Ricoh in charge. I also seriously doubt they will abandon the Kmount. I don't think they can compete with Canon or Nikon in the short term given the enormous lead those two brands have in lenses. Especially for Full Frame. When I decided to get a Full Frame camera I didn't wait for Pentax to make one because let's face it they don't really have a lot of good lenses for that format unless I wanted to shop on Ebay.

I don't understand the objection to Pentax making a mirrorless camera or just something different. The Q was an interesting idea that I thought was overpriced. They probably could have done better with it at a lower price point. The sensor was perhaps too small, but for that style camera I'm not sure your target market is a D700 buyer. I don't think something different precludes them from continuing manufacturing a traditional DSLR. On the other hand for a company whose brand awareness is pretty minimal, having something like a Nex 7 or an X100 product (something that changes the way people look at cameras) would be a good thing. Of course it has to be executed correctly.

I bet Sony sells a boatload of the Nex 7's. I'd get one except they only have one good lens for it.

12-20-2011, 08:53 PM   #302
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Why do people think that Pentax will abandon the K-mount? There have been no comments made by anyone associated with Pentax to that effect, but it keeps circulating.

If Pentax releases a new EVIL mount it will have no effect on the K-mount.
Preciesly, it's quite strange.

I do hope that pentax is willing to change for the better though, they also held on for very long to the M42 mount while everybody was changing to bayonet.
For once i hope pentax is at time for the party or might even start it like they used to in the very begining.
12-20-2011, 08:54 PM   #303
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote

If Pentax releases a new EVIL mount it will have no effect on the K-mount.
I think the concern is further fragmentation in the lens lines resulting in fewer choices within each line. Q + Mirrorless aps-c + K-mount aps-c & K-mount FF + 645 might mean "jack of all trades, master of none". Maybe no more things like Limiteds, maybe no good replacement for SDM, maybe no state-of-art PDAF module for DSLR.


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12-20-2011, 08:57 PM   #304
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QuoteQuote:
And the entire conversation presupposes that K mount isn't viable for a competitive MILC, would I believe is wrong.
Agreed. This really isn't an either/or situation.

QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
It's not just their film customers. Switching from K-mount screws people that bought K-5's yesterday.

Is the opportunity presented by the theoretical MILC mount more or less than that loss of goodwill?
I don't think Pentax will abandon mirrors completely, and surely not in the short term. But the fact is that Pentax has not been able to increase market share in the last 10+ years with the K mount at the center of their ecosystem. Not top quality lenses designed specifically for APS-C (DA*). Not unique, jewel-like primes (DA Limited). Not bodies that lead their respective classes (K-x, K-5, et. al.). The blame for this does not lie completely with the K mount, of course, but Pentax is under new ownership with deep pockets and what sounds like a commitment to fuel top-line growth, not bottom-line cost control. As Ricoh Pentax charts a course for the next 5-10 years, they would be remiss in their duties if they did not consider alternatives beyond the venerable K-mount.

It's a tough spot - beat up by the old bullies (Nikon, Canon) and a step or more behind the silicon-savvy new entrants (Panasonic, Sony). Ricoh Pentax has a needle to thread.

12-20-2011, 08:58 PM   #305
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QuoteOriginally posted by Philoslothical Quote
There have been a lot more factors in play than the form factor of Pentax's DSLRs, or their lens lineups. Hoya left the name to languish. You don't sell cameras without marketing them.
I'm not going to dispute that but they are where they are now. And the point I was responding to was a inference that you can't change mounts an be successful. Canon categorically disproves that point.
12-20-2011, 09:03 PM   #306
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
I think the concern is further fragmentation in the lens lines resulting in fewer choices within each line. Q + Mirrorless aps-c + K-mount aps-c & K-mount FF + 645 might mean "jack of all trades, master of none". Maybe no more things like Limiteds, maybe no good replacement for SDM, maybe no state-of-art PDAF module for DSLR.


.
I think Ricoh has the money to do that, but I don't understand why they would release a Full Frame without at least 5 new lenses:

24-70
70-200
35mm
85mm
24mm

They also need a good macro but maybe the 100mm works on Full Frame?

A 14-24 would also be good but that's a more specialized lens.

Without those you are going to have a hard time convincing Nikon or Canon shooters to buy a Pentax. Maybe they could upgrade some of their old lenses? I don't know much about them. I had the DA Limiteds but recently sold them to buy Nikon lenses. I've kept the 31, 43, and 77 because I think they might end up being good on a film camera.
12-20-2011, 09:26 PM   #307
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QuoteOriginally posted by maxfield_photo Quote
The only thing that has kept Pentax alive during the digital transition is the loyalty of their old film users, alienate them and you might as well stick to selling endoscopes.
Ricoh can't sell endoscopes, because Hoya kept those patents and products, remember

Seriously, i can't say that the K mount has been a huge success in the last 5 years because of their minority fraction of the marketplace. When i bought my K10, there were still some stores in my area that carried them, now? None. Sure, with the last few models, the trend for Pentax is better, but i don't expect to see the brand around in 5 years if they don't climb on the train.

It isn't just Pentax facing these changes, Canon and Nikon models will likely be nothing like they are today. Backward compatibility?, heck, they will be tossing their vaunted VR lenses under the wheels if necessary to survive. I think K gave us perhaps an idea of some of the challenges ahead, Noone really knows whats ahead. there are probably more cameras out there built into people's phones than in any other configuration.

Last edited by philbaum; 12-20-2011 at 09:33 PM.
12-20-2011, 09:38 PM   #308
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I don't think Pentax will abandon mirrors completely, and surely not in the short term. But the fact is that Pentax has not been able to increase market share in the last 10+ years with the K mount at the center of their ecosystem. Not top quality lenses designed specifically for APS-C (DA*). Not unique, jewel-like primes (DA Limited). Not bodies that lead their respective classes (K-x, K-5, et. al.). The blame for this does not lie completely with the K mount, of course, but Pentax is under new ownership with deep pockets and what sounds like a commitment to fuel top-line growth, not bottom-line cost control. As Ricoh Pentax charts a course for the next 5-10 years, they would be remiss in their duties if they did not consider alternatives beyond the venerable K-mount.

It's a tough spot - beat up by the old bullies (Nikon, Canon) and a step or more behind the silicon-savvy new entrants (Panasonic, Sony). Ricoh Pentax has a needle to thread.
I agree with your basic point, but reach a different conclusion.

I tend to think that Pentax's lack of traction has had more to do with philosophy and lack of aggression rather than specific technology. Pentax has encouraged and attracted a certain level of stick-in-the-mud-ists, re-living the glory days of the LX rather than aggressively making the case for their current products.

K mount is essentially golden handcuffs. Even if they wanted to, they can't afford to leave it. Ricoh bought Pentax. If they wanted to re-invent the wheel they could've focused on their own existing quirky camera operation. Pentax gives them a larger base of customers with goodwill. They obviously want to preserve that. So I think the eye of the needle involves leveraging K mount in the short term to get room for more stuff down the road. Incrementally better SLR's might keep some of the faithful at home, but it's not going to build the brand (to your point). If they're not designing a K mount GXR module right this second, they're crazy. Also, I'd be looking very closely at removing the prism hump from the K-r chassis, paring it down as much as possible, sticking a small EVF in the top left corner and releasing that as an MILC... My ad copy would say "The only MILC with a full lens lineup, and full lens compatibility to an SLR system, day one." And personally, I'd buy that, versus a NEX7/X100/Fuji MILC that I intend to buy next, just because it would be a value proposition.

12-20-2011, 09:42 PM   #309
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
What a bunch of Luddites. Why go with pneumatic tyres when you can have a wagon wheel, right?
More like why use 17" rims when you can use 15" rims...
12-20-2011, 09:50 PM   #310
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Why do people think that Pentax will abandon the K-mount? There have been no comments made by anyone associated with Pentax to that effect, but it keeps circulating.
I don't think they will, but some people on our forums, in this very thread, have been actively campaigning for it. They could possibly be Cannon or Nikon employees. Just sayin'.
12-20-2011, 10:03 PM   #311
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
I don't see Pentax going back to Samsung, or to go to Fuji. As you said, it will be a sony sensor . . . .
Or they can bite the bullet and go for a canon sensor, or one from DALSA or even use the something similar to what Kodak produced for the Leica M9 - just a thought: a FF EVIL camera will need to have micro-lenses with modified geometry at the periphery of the sensor to compensate for the short back-focus. Kodak has more experience doing that than sony has.

QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
let's hope it's a FF Rangefinder Leica killer - with a GREAT viewfinder
Pentax never made a rangefinder - with the Epson RD1 rumor has it they had experts from Konica to help with the design of the RF mechanism.
12-21-2011, 12:39 AM   #312
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
What a bunch of Luddites. Why go with pneumatic tyres when you can have a wagon wheel, right?
What a bunch of gadget freaks. They're too willing to replace something that works with something that doesn't, but is "new" and "cool"
Btw, do you shave using a (mirrorless) CCTV system, with a nice 50" OLED screen? The Luddite me is still using a mirror


QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
Abandoning K mount is madness. The instant you obsolete Pentax users lens libraries you've destroyed a large portion of the reason to stick with Pentax. You've effectively created a startup camera company.
Bingo.
I don't think they will, either.

Clinton: more like regular tires vs. run-flat tires.
12-21-2011, 01:10 AM   #313
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Okay, seeing as EVIL cameras are an entirely new class, is there inherently a reason why typical glass will simply not work?

If there is a SLR, a DSLR, and an EVIL camera, all APS-C sized sensors, the a lens should work with all three, theoretically, right?

I am not 100% because I have heard that the image projection from a typical mirrored camera means the lens focuses and presents the rays of light against a plane further back and putting a sensor right up to the glass, albeit, in an overall size reducing manner, will render the lens impossible to use.
12-21-2011, 01:13 AM   #314
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Why re-invent it? Because Ricoh's money can give Pentax a chance to do it again and right this time. With the zillions of lenses Canon and Nikon already have it'd be almost impossible for them to follow without going broke. This is a chance for Pentax to forget the wagon wheel, innovate, reinvent itself and redefine Digital Photography in the process. I find it hard to believe that people want them to keep doing the things they did they did which almost lead to their demise.
I have to agree, they have a huge opportunity here. A mirrorless FF camera may be somewhat of a compromise right now, but as part of an entirely new system that will grow over the next years as mirrorless technology improves, it makes a whole lot of sense.

I still think they could make a DSLR FF camera as well, though. Why not? They already have quite a few FF-capable primes, they really only have to get out a couple of zooms. It wouldn't be a system one would expect to grow much over the years, but SLR is probably dying in a few years anyway.
12-21-2011, 01:15 AM   #315
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kryscendo Quote
Okay, seeing as EVIL cameras are an entirely new class, is there inherently a reason why typical glass will simply not work?

If there is a SLR, a DSLR, and an EVIL camera, all APS-C sized sensors, the a lens should work with all three, theoretically, right?
I'm amazed how often this comes up. The point is that EVIL makes no sense with the large distance to the sensor that the mirror requires. And if you simply place the lens closer to the sensor, it's not in focus (it's past infinity).
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