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12-20-2011, 01:09 PM   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by lurchlarson Quote
Within 10 years someone will bump this thread up from the depths and we will all have a laugh about how we were bickering about the merits/cons of mirrorless cameras. Mirrorless is the wave of the future. You either get behind it or you get left behind. Remember the transition to digital? Pentax missed the boat with that one and lost a lot of market share. I would rather them be on the leading edge of this wave then get left behind again.

The first EVIL FF will be either from Sony or Pentax. Canon and Nikon have too much baggage to be the first ones on that. Yes, losing the current mount sucks but there is no way around it.

The transition from film to digital was complete change in technology and possibilities. Mirrorless is simply about removing the optical finder from the camera for cost reasons, without adding any feature that isn't already on a DSLR. Hardly anything that will revolutionize photography or indeed make any difference in ones photography.

Theres no sign that Nikon and Canon are getting left behind in spite of mirrorless; they set new records on DSLR production and if I'm not mistaken Canon will soon make 7 million of them a year. Evils are in form P&S camera with interchangeable optics. The fact that P&S now comes with interchangeable lenses will have minimal impact on DSLR sales apart form the fact that it will fragment the market further...

Mirrorless cameras have been around for more than 100 years. They did indeed have the advantages of no mirror slap, more compact design and shorter lenses but that has not prevented the (D)SLR to be highly sucessful...


Last edited by Pl Jensen; 12-20-2011 at 01:16 PM.
12-20-2011, 01:22 PM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
My Panasonic GH2 can record over 90 minutes of HD video and over 120 minutes on a single battery without breaking a sweat. The future's already here.

I easily spend two hours a day squinting through the viewfinder composing images and ending up taking four photographs.
Batteries need to be about 50 times better...
12-20-2011, 01:24 PM   #138
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Exact + i would like to understand why so many people just need to kill something in their whishes for "the modernity's" sake, be it any technology or any label

Our world of interest - i mean photography as an occupation and as a market - is definitly an expanding one.
And as an art or simply a culture, we definitely need diversity.
12-20-2011, 01:34 PM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
Mirrorless is simply about removing the optical finder from the camera for cost reasons, without adding any feature that isn't already on a DSLR.
Some things that mirrorless cameras can do that dSLRs can't...
  1. Instant review of the shot just taken in the viewfinder. No need to take the camera away from your eye.
  2. Display of live histogram in the viewfinder
  3. Real-time display of under/over exposure in viewfinder BEFORE taking photo (camera can be set to flash areas that are pure black/pure white)
  4. Display of black & white image in viewfinder
  5. Display of other visual effect (high contrast, toy camera effects, etc...) in viewfinder
  6. Real-time view of white balance setting in viewfinder
  7. AF point can be positioned anywhere in the frame (not just limited to fixed points)
  8. AF point can be resized
  9. Magnified view for manual focus
  10. Peeking view (highlight parts of the frame that are in focus) for Manual Focus and DOF control
  11. No need for lens calibration

It sounds like you haven't spent much time with a mirrorless camera.

12-20-2011, 01:40 PM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
I easily spend two hours a day squinting through the viewfinder composing images and ending up taking four photographs.
Batteries need to be about 50 times better...
No problem. I can go a whole day taking photos on a single charge. From just 4 shutter presses to over 200. My GH2 goes to sleep after 30 seconds of inactivity and wakes up with a half-press of the shutter. I've had the GH2 and the K-5 in the same bag. It's no more a battery hog than the K-5.

I was talking specifically about concerns regarding overheating sensors. It's been solved by Panasonic already.
12-20-2011, 02:16 PM   #141
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Nope. No difference from the first minute to the last minute. Not only that, but the GH2 records in CPU-intensive AVCHD format, so not only is the sensor generating heat, but the rear LCD and CPU are generating heat as well. IIRC, the GH2 has a dual core CPU to handle the class-leading video. All of this in a package significantly smaller than a K-5:




Panasonic sure does know a thing or two about miniaturization and heat management. I've even McGuyvered a 5000mAH RC battery and run the thing nearly continuously for a day of video shooting. Not a hiccup.
Panasonic knows a thing or 2 about Video for that matter.

As a video unit i like the m4/3 cameras easier for me to nail focus on the fly wide open for one. not my first choice for a camera though but make a decent backup.... mind you if a FF EVIL arrives from Pentax my K7 will be the backup
12-20-2011, 02:21 PM   #142
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Thanks a lot for the translation, v5planet!
Thanks also to Mike for your input.

It is very good to read that Pentax receives encouraging support from Ricoh. Other than that, I wouldn't read anything into the interview. It seems like Pentax will produce some more (small) DSLRs and their head sees advantages in mirrorless systems. So no surprises, really.

Too bad that the interviewer kept pushing the same mirrorless/FF topics instead of exploring other topics, e.g., lens roadmaps, as well.
12-20-2011, 02:24 PM - 1 Like   #143
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The “lack of” any solid news or commitment from Pentax is really disappointing. Another year of wishful thinking and dreaming of Pentax FF down the drain. I would have loved to spend my hard earned $ on a Pentax FF and glass to go with it. I am worn out from all this waiting and wishing, next logical choice might be Nikon FF. Already have nice collection of Nikon FF glass with all the money I did not spend with Pentax in past couple years. Only question is if I keep holding on to my Pentax FA lenses.

12-20-2011, 02:27 PM   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Thanks a lot for the translation, v5planet!
Thanks also to Mike for your input.

It is very good to read that Pentax receives encouraging support from Ricoh. Other than that, I wouldn't read anything into the interview. It seems like Pentax will produce some more (small) DSLRs and their head sees advantages in mirrorless systems. So no surprises, really.

Too bad that the interviewer kept pushing the same mirrorless/FF topics instead of exploring other topics, e.g., lens roadmaps, as well.
Yeah, he pushed it pretty hard. I think if I were him I would have stopped right when Kitazawa said Ricoh was letting Pentax look at things they've wanted to do, and ask him exactly what those things are.
12-20-2011, 02:30 PM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by Macroguy Quote
The lack of any solid news or commitment from Pentax is really disappointing. Another year of wishful thinking and dreaming of Pentax FF down the drain. I would have loved to spend my hard earned $ on a Pentax FF and glass to go with it. I am worn out from all this waiting and wishing, next logical choice might be Nikon FF. Already have nice collection of Nikon FF glass with all the money I did not spend with Pentax in past couple years. Only question is if I keep holding on to my Pentax FA lenses.
if you can't wait go Nikon if you can find stock. particularly if it is for the long glass and bog zoom end of things for sports style shooting. Even when (if) it comes a FF Pentax probably won't target this market segment

in reality i didn't expect too many announcements this year given the company changed hands in october too late for any impact ion the christmas season and it would have been another hoya Pentax product. I'd rather wait a bit since Ricoh seems more willing to spend money and this can only mean good things for the most part.
If on the other hand we don't see announcements and possibly roadmaps by late spring i will be disappointed
12-20-2011, 02:32 PM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Some things that mirrorless cameras can do that dSLRs can't...
  1. Instant review of the shot just taken in the viewfinder. No need to take the camera away from your eye.
  2. Display of live histogram in the viewfinder
  3. Real-time display of under/over exposure in viewfinder BEFORE taking photo (camera can be set to flash areas that are pure black/pure white)
  4. Display of black & white image in viewfinder
  5. Display of other visual effect (high contrast, toy camera effects, etc...) in viewfinder
  6. Real-time view of white balance setting in viewfinder
  7. AF point can be positioned anywhere in the frame (not just limited to fixed points)
  8. AF point can be resized
  9. Magnified view for manual focus
  10. Peeking view (highlight parts of the frame that are in focus) for Manual Focus and DOF control
  11. No need for lens calibration

It sounds like you haven't spent much time with a mirrorless camera.
+1

I've tested the Sony Alpha 77: amaizing! It is, I think, the second generation and the future will be very interesting.

Regards.

Malsi
12-20-2011, 03:04 PM - 1 Like   #147
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Some things that mirrorless cameras can do that dSLRs can't...
  1. Instant review of the shot just taken in the viewfinder. No need to take the camera away from your eye.
  2. Display of live histogram in the viewfinder
  3. Real-time display of under/over exposure in viewfinder BEFORE taking photo (camera can be set to flash areas that are pure black/pure white)
  4. Display of black & white image in viewfinder
  5. Display of other visual effect (high contrast, toy camera effects, etc...) in viewfinder
  6. Real-time view of white balance setting in viewfinder
  7. AF point can be positioned anywhere in the frame (not just limited to fixed points)
  8. AF point can be resized
  9. Magnified view for manual focus
  10. Peeking view (highlight parts of the frame that are in focus) for Manual Focus and DOF control
  11. No need for lens calibration

It sounds like you haven't spent much time with a mirrorless camera.
All this can be implemented in an DSLR too without loosing a decent optical finder....
12-20-2011, 03:23 PM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
All this can be implemented in an DSLR too without loosing a decent optical finder....
You know something engineers don't. HOW you can implement them on DSLR?
Best optical viewfinder of APS-C is worse than best EVF. The OVF still has the edge in some areas (the main is wider DR), but overall I much prefer EVF. Mainly for ease of use for MF. With K-5 using A50/1.2 was a pain and I have very few good shots taken with OVF, most were taken via LV. Today I have decent hit ratio with this lens and MF is a joy now on my NEX-5N.
Moreover, I can use lenses (Leica, of course) that will blown any Pentax counterpart away. You just can't put them on SLR.
12-20-2011, 03:33 PM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Emacs Quote
You know something engineers don't. HOW you can implement them on DSLR?.
By flipping up the mirror. Most DSLR are EVIL's. They just happen to have a optical viefinder in addition to the electronic one.
12-20-2011, 03:40 PM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
By flipping up the mirror. Most DSLR are EVIL's. They just happen to have a optical viefinder in addition to the electronic one.
Well, this sounds not quite stupid. But this will cost you additional money: transparent OLED screen + lots of glass.
Again, my NEX-5N + leica super elmar 18 weights slightly more than 500g. The optically inferior combo of K-5 and CZ Distagon 18 ZK will weight more than 1300g and will take much more space. Of course, the leica itself costs more than K-5 and CZ, but you can buy CZ Distagon 18 ZM instead, it's only 40g heavier than leica and just like as good (better than SLR one).

Last edited by Emacs; 12-20-2011 at 04:10 PM.
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