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12-21-2011, 08:07 AM   #166
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
When I ride or hike to the top of a mountain, I stand there, breathe in the fresh air, admire the beauty and majesty of nature, and then think to myself, "let me capture some aspect of this place to share with others." only then will I take the camera out and use the tools available to me to make a successful image capture.

Likewise, my most successful candids are when I am immersed in a scene, sometimes engaged with the players, sometimes a fly on the wall. Only after being immersed with all of my senses can I successfully photograph it, sometimes looking through an OVF, sometimes through and EVF, and sometimes when the situation warrants it through a rear LCD and the camera positioned discretely.

Composing with photons versus composing with electrons make not a wit of difference in the output, the photo. After all, you can't look at a photo on the wall and discern if it was taken with an EVF or an OVF, can you? So does it matter?


That's just my $.02 though. I have a friend who tried my GH2 and couldn't come to grips with the EVF. Truth told, I prefer the look of the K-5 OVF, but the GH2's EVF offers so many benefits that I'm not willing to dismiss it outright. It did take a while to get used too, but human beings are highly adaptable, aren't we?
+1

Modern OVF (with AF) in low light situations is often too dim. Sure you can use LiveView, but then you aren't using the VF. But LV often seems clunky on dual phase and CD focus systems. That mirror flopping around to get out of the way, perhaps thats the clunkiness.

To me, the camera is just a tool to capture the initial image. I use the computer monitor or a print to enjoy the final image. I still enjoy using my old 7meg Canon PS, but of course it doesn't have the low light sensor performance of the K5. I don't have one of these new EVIL cameras yet, but i have no doubt that i will be able to adjust quite easily to it. If i don't see an EVIL in aps or FF coming from pentax in about a year, then i'll plunk down for the m4/3 or the NEX. I very much enjoy my current K5 and will continue to use it for its sensor performance, but i don't consider its OVF an appealing feature.

12-21-2011, 08:13 AM - 1 Like   #167
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Mace: "Its just an unnatural, imperfect representation of reality and your brain has to deal with it and compensate for shortcomings of the technique." - precisely. The EVF is an intrusive technology, it replaces the reality with it's own interpretation. Yet I'd like to keep that "immersion" johnmflores is talking about, also while composing.
But not all OVFs are equal, far from it; I'm not that impressed with the K-5, however when I look through an old Rolleicord... oh, yeah - beat that, Sony! Maybe Pentax should be truly different, not an EVF-trend follower and once again put real viewfinders in their (high-end) cameras?

By the way, I'm using both the OVF and the LCD/Live View, as I see fit; because indeed it's much easier to manual focus on the magnified LV image (but then, precision framing becomes impossible). So I actually want both.

philbaum, yet in very low light - think about astrophotography - you won't be able to see much with an EVF/LCD (only the brightest stars, good enough for precision focus to infinity). Yet your dark accommodated eye should easily distinguish faint objects like nebulae.
12-21-2011, 08:13 AM   #168
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
But isn't there light loss with the semi-transparent mirror? And more light loss with the EVF overlay? Doest all of this make the optical viewfinder a little less...optical?
There would not need to be more loss than we already have for AF. And since the market for a DSLR without AF would be too small I don't expect to ever get that light back (except when using old film cameras of course).

I don't think the EVF overlay would need to cost much light, but I could be wrong. If it did, it should be possible to slide it out of the way.

Indeed, it should be possible to adjust the transparency of the mirror, so we could have that light back when not using the sensor for anything.

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
This resistance to seeing the world through an LCD perplexes me. Aren't we, after all, using digital cameras and more often than not these days viewing images on digital devices?
In my case it's a resistance to using a camera I don't enjoy using. Since it's a question of emotions I don't feel the need to give any rational explanation. (Except this: If I don't enjoy using the camera I won't, and if I don't it doesn't matter at all how good it might be for taking pictures.)

But of course I expect to be using an EVF at some point in the future. But not yet.
12-21-2011, 08:14 AM   #169
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
+1

Modern OVF (with AF) in low light situations is often too dim. Sure you can use LiveView, but then you aren't using the VF. But LV often seems clunky on dual phase and CD focus systems. That mirror flopping around to get out of the way, perhaps thats the clunkiness.

To me, the camera is just a tool to capture the initial image. I use the computer monitor or a print to enjoy the final image. I still enjoy using my old 7meg Canon PS, but of course it doesn't have the low light sensor performance of the K5. I don't have one of these new EVIL cameras yet, but i have no doubt that i will be able to adjust quite easily to it. If i don't see an EVIL in aps or FF coming from pentax in about a year, then i'll plunk down for the m4/3 or the NEX. I very much enjoy my current K5 and will continue to use it for its sensor performance, but i don't consider its OVF an appealing feature.
Well if you are waiting a year there will be other MILC options too. Like the the Rumoured Fuji based on the X100 (that is a really tempting one for me)

12-21-2011, 08:18 AM   #170
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
In my case it's a resistance to using a camera I don't enjoy using. Since it's a question of emotions I don't feel the need to give any rational explanation. (Except this: If I don't enjoy using the camera I won't, and if I don't it doesn't matter at all how good it might be for taking pictures.)
Fair enough.
12-21-2011, 09:34 AM   #171
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Yes, but without an OVF, will it sell to those select crowds?

Odds are, no.

And I bet market research by the Canikon crowd bears that out.
OVF is nice, but I would be willing to bet that if the camera was excellent in every other regard, People would be willing to overlook the EVF. If it as sharp or sharper than the the a77 EVF than I think Pentax would have a real winner. Sure people may check the box that EVF=no-go but when push comes to shove, if Pentax were to launch with a compelling line of lenses and an even more compelling camera they would sell lots of FF cameras.
12-21-2011, 09:58 AM   #172
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I have tried a number of the new cameras with Electronic View Finders and find that at this time they all lack. Screens are still jerky and the electronic image is not realistic enough for me. Until the technology improves I would prefer to use the traditional method of a view finder or if Pentax can come up with something more innovative, at least something that looks realistic and closer to what I am actually seeing.
12-21-2011, 10:55 AM - 1 Like   #173
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QuoteOriginally posted by cadmus Quote
Thanks v5planet!!!!!!!

I agree, miniaturization is not as important as image quality.

Please Mr. Kitazawa, do not move from AA batteries, you will disenfranchise those adventurers who can not recharge.
QuoteOriginally posted by K1D27H Quote
Agreed, Mamiya 645 AFD series also offer an AA batteries tray for those who want to use it (even if it requires 6 AA batteries to operate). It is good to have options, really.
The K-7 and K-5 battery grip comes with a AA battery tray (6 batteries). So those two cameras are capable in any situation.

12-21-2011, 12:08 PM   #174
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
There would not need to be more loss than we already have for AF. And since the market for a DSLR without AF would be too small I don't expect to ever get that light back (except when using old film cameras of course).

I don't think the EVF overlay would need to cost much light, but I could be wrong. If it did, it should be possible to slide it out of the way.

Indeed, it should be possible to adjust the transparency of the mirror, so we could have that light back when not using the sensor for anything.



In my case it's a resistance to using a camera I don't enjoy using. Since it's a question of emotions I don't feel the need to give any rational explanation. (Except this: If I don't enjoy using the camera I won't, and if I don't it doesn't matter at all how good it might be for taking pictures.)

But of course I expect to be using an EVF at some point in the future. But not yet.

Pentax does have a patent for a hybrid viewfinder that can be use in a dslr camera. If memory serves me right it projects an image down to the screen when the mirror is up for liveview.

Dave
12-21-2011, 12:10 PM   #175
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobell69 Quote
I have tried a number of the new cameras with Electronic View Finders and find that at this time they all lack. Screens are still jerky and the electronic image is not realistic enough for me. Until the technology improves I would prefer to use the traditional method of a view finder or if Pentax can come up with something more innovative, at least something that looks realistic and closer to what I am actually seeing.
I too have tried them. In good light they are excellent. in poor light the quality degrades so much that even an Olympus 43 VF is far superior.

The Sony A77 has a nice, relatively smooth screen, but the EVF in a tracking or panning situation forces you to rely almost exclusively on the AF and burst shooting, plus PP evaluation later.

I see no EVF now that can compete with an OVF for 100% DR and no lag. I doubt an EVF will be able to replace an OVF for low light unless there is artificial illumination or IR assistance, or other battery-sucking enhancements.
12-21-2011, 12:27 PM   #176
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
I see no EVF now that can compete with an OVF for 100% DR and no lag. I doubt an EVF will be able to replace an OVF for low light unless there is artificial illumination or IR assistance, or other battery-sucking enhancements.
Such a refined bullshit
Did you use the latest sony EVF?
12-21-2011, 02:51 PM   #177
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I tried the A65 in sony store, I still much prefer OVF
12-21-2011, 02:58 PM   #178
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QuoteOriginally posted by Azzy Quote
I tried the A65 in sony store, I still much prefer OVF
Did you use it in real shooting? I prefer the look of OVF too. But for the real shooting … no way for OVF.
12-21-2011, 03:58 PM   #179
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I've tried the SLT models as well the EVF's are in no way acceptable to me. Say no to mirror less.
Sadly I think the Ricoh influence might win out though after all this is the company that brought us the overpriced irrelevant GX-R
12-21-2011, 04:12 PM   #180
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I used to think that an OVF is a must have, because EVFs would not work that well, but I now discovered that for most situations I don't even need a VF at all - the LCD screen is just fine enough. For longer lenses, mainly because of stabilization issues, I would still want some VF so I can hold the camera against my head. Haven't sampled yet any EVF, but I am more open towards the idea than I used to be.
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