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01-02-2012, 10:11 AM   #301
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
Leica users aren't going to come to our brand. The religion of Leica has them,
Sony Nex seems to be very popular amongst Leica users, and I believe the M-module from Ricoh will be too. But a larger FF sensor will probably get Leica users even more excited.

QuoteQuote:
I'm ok with this, but I just don't see it happening. A fully supported adapter is going to be a complex operation. An operation that's going to have to include a substantial AF motor in the adapter.
Sony has already made this type of adapter for Nex so I guess it is possible for Pentax too.
Digital Camera Lens Adapter | α NEX Camera Mount Adapter | LA-EA2 | Sony USA

QuoteQuote:
Which goes back to, what is it in the K mount that isn't doing what you want, except the few mm you think you can save on the registration distance?
You get the same advantage as with Rangefinder cameras. A shorter register distance makes it possible to make smaller wideangle lenses with less complex design. And with bigger apertures the size penalty is not as big if using longer register distance. IMO a mirrorless platform like this is even better suited for Pentax Limited type of lenses.

A Voigtl舅der 35/1,4 Nokton for M-mount is 55 x 28.5mm and weigts 200g, Canon 35/1.4 for EF-mount is 86 x 79mm and weights 580g.
You can check the difference in apperance at the end on this post on TOP.
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01-02-2012, 10:12 AM   #302
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As I've mentioned before, this doesn't need to be an either/or, especially with the GXR modular concept. Imagine:

- 1 body, larger than current GXR, with CPU to handle FF and other related functions
- 1 module, standard K-mount, including FF sensor, PDAF, OVF
- 1 module, mirrorless K-mount, smaller, EVF, takes new line of K-mount lenses (K2)?

How cool would that be?

Some things that need to be remembered:
- Mirrorless is not just for small size
- Size is not just a function of the presence/absence of a mirror
- Sensor size impacts lens size. Larger sensors equal larger lenses
- Mirrorless FF size benefits most evident with primes. With zooms, lens size is a bigger influence in overall size
- As much as we here in this little forum like primes, most of the world uses zooms.

Happy new year everyone!
01-02-2012, 10:32 AM   #303
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
As I've mentioned before, this doesn't need to be an either/or, especially with the GXR modular concept. Imagine:

- 1 body, larger than current GXR, with CPU to handle FF and other related functions
- 1 module, standard K-mount, including FF sensor, PDAF, OVF
- 1 module, mirrorless K-mount, smaller, EVF, takes new line of K-mount lenses (K2)?

How cool would that be?

Some things that need to be remembered:
- Mirrorless is not just for small size
- Size is not just a function of the presence/absence of a mirror
- Sensor size impacts lens size. Larger sensors equal larger lenses
- Mirrorless FF size benefits most evident with primes. With zooms, lens size is a bigger influence in overall size
- As much as we here in this little forum like primes, most of the world uses zooms.

Happy new year everyone!
It would be pretty cool.
01-02-2012, 03:00 PM   #304
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
If you attach the DA 40 Limited pancake to a film body, you've got a wide normal combo that's so small you can slip it in your pocket.

How much more super compact are you looking for?
The fraction who use primes are not a market.

You need the equivalent with zooms.

01-02-2012, 03:18 PM   #305
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
- 1 module, standard K-mount, including FF sensor, PDAF, OVF
Makes no sense.

That's a FF DSLR. I cannot see how you get the module and an OVF. The module is simply an LCD at this point, so it is far simpler to use the existing DSLR design that has the structural integrity to support larger lenses, an issue with most modular systems.

This is what you'll get:


Last edited by Aristophanes; 01-02-2012 at 04:52 PM.
01-02-2012, 03:31 PM   #306
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The fraction who use primes are not a market.

You need the equivalent with zooms.
Please, just please... Not again the USA-centric, male-centric crap. Please open your mind and look past that stereotype. The USA market is not the most important in the world any more. More Pentaxes are sold in Europe than in the USA. The Pentax of today is putting its focus literally on females and emerging markets like China and India (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, Europe indeed). Those markets are VERY different to the USA market. Here in Europe, Pentax definitely is the brand of primes. It's their selling point over here. Even Canikon users regard us highly because of our excellent primes and small DSLR bodies. And, even the Q can be seen in that light. Bigger is not always better, but maybe it's hard to get past the USA mindset (where everything is big, bigger, biggest, although I'm seeing that that sort of obscene consumerism is coming to an end there too, thank god for the financial crisis we're in).

But what I really wanted to say: can't Pentax in your mind be just like... Pentax? It seems that you want them to become another Canon or Nikon, where "big" seems to be the main selling point. Well, many, many of us don't like to haul large chunks of glass around for fun. I liked the hefty Canon 5D for its IQ. I honestly liked my Pentax K10D and K20D, which were not really big. I liked the K-7 and K-5 even more, and they were smaller. But the strangest thing of all is that I liked the Q more than any of these cameras. Is it just me? Maybe. Maybe not everyone is in for the miniaturization process Pentax is in, but didn't cell phones get smaller to make them more transportable, wearable, usable, more fun? There's a reason why my wife does not want to touch my DSLR's, but she cannot get her hands off my Q. The same goes for my children. They call my K-5 the 'big daddy' camera, but they'll grab the Q when they can (and I don't allow them - yet! )

Big, hefty DSLR's are just as stereotype and outdated as is the fat American driving a gas-guzzling Chevy Suburban (or any SUV for that matter). The market is changing, Nikon seems to understand that to some extent, Canon yet hasn't because they don't need to. Yet! But they should quickly get their act together or they'll get out of touch with the emerging markets.

I'll speak you again in a year
01-02-2012, 05:12 PM   #307
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Please, just please... Not again the USA-centric, male-centric crap. Please open your mind and look past that stereotype. The USA market is not the most important in the world any more. More Pentaxes are sold in Europe than in the USA. The Pentax of today is putting its focus literally on females and emerging markets like China and India (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, Europe indeed). Those markets are VERY different to the USA market. Here in Europe, Pentax definitely is the brand of primes. It's their selling point over here. Even Canikon users regard us highly because of our excellent primes and small DSLR bodies. And, even the Q can be seen in that light. Bigger is not always better, but maybe it's hard to get past the USA mindset (where everything is big, bigger, biggest, although I'm seeing that that sort of obscene consumerism is coming to an end there too, thank god for the financial crisis we're in).

But what I really wanted to say: can't Pentax in your mind be just like... Pentax? It seems that you want them to become another Canon or Nikon, where "big" seems to be the main selling point. Well, many, many of us don't like to haul large chunks of glass around for fun. I liked the hefty Canon 5D for its IQ. I honestly liked my Pentax K10D and K20D, which were not really big. I liked the K-7 and K-5 even more, and they were smaller. But the strangest thing of all is that I liked the Q more than any of these cameras. Is it just me? Maybe. Maybe not everyone is in for the miniaturization process Pentax is in, but didn't cell phones get smaller to make them more transportable, wearable, usable, more fun? There's a reason why my wife does not want to touch my DSLR's, but she cannot get her hands off my Q. The same goes for my children. They call my K-5 the 'big daddy' camera, but they'll grab the Q when they can (and I don't allow them - yet! )

Big, hefty DSLR's are just as stereotype and outdated as is the fat American driving a gas-guzzling Chevy Suburban (or any SUV for that matter). The market is changing, Nikon seems to understand that to some extent, Canon yet hasn't because they don't need to. Yet! But they should quickly get their act together or they'll get out of touch with the emerging markets.

I'll speak you again in a year
Please don't assume I speak for all "USA-centric" people (being from Canada, but having worked extensively on 3 continents).

Last I read from a Nikon source, zooms were 8:1 sellers over primes, and much more so with pros where zooms totally dominate. This means zooms also make more gross revenues by a large margin, though I suspect primes have lower design and warranty servicing costs.

If you think a Pentax system with its very expensive primes can do better in a market where zooms are the norm, you've been drinking the Leica Kool-Aid.

And I think you are only hearing on your market a sliver of opinion. I strongly doubt that each brand in Europe as a whole is so "prime" oriented. I have read European camera mags and I recall none of that marketing thrust.

Frankly, I don't see the market changing at all. I see as many people wanting a small camera as those wanting something traditionally sized, as in Nikon F3 sized.

Your main assumption is YOU see the market as homogenous, as do those clamouring for one body to do it all, so long as it s small, mirrorless, and can take k-mount with no exceptions.

Last edited by Aristophanes; 01-03-2012 at 07:33 AM.
01-02-2012, 05:17 PM   #308
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One of the reason for Pentax prime lens sucess is that they have so few desireable zoom lenses....

01-02-2012, 05:26 PM   #309
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If Pentax comes out with FF mirrorless with a new lens line up for it, I will consider that before moving up to M9 from M8.
01-02-2012, 06:32 PM   #310
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There have been several posts saying that Pentax users will feel no special loyalty to the brand if a non K-mount large sensor mirrorless line is introduced. It's as if we're all champing at the bit to migrate to another brand, but the only thing keeping us here is our (respective) collections of K-mount glass.

Not me. I've well and truly drunk the Pentax Kool Aid. I like the company and the personality that it manifests through its products. I like the controls on my SLR and would greatly prefer that any future bodies that I buy have a similar "DNA". I really like in-body shake reduction, and have a hard time contemplating buying a body without this feature. I'm quite smug about the fact that I can buy beautiful little prime lenses at reasonable prices. And then there's the heritage of an old-school camera maker, as distinct from being another product line from an electronics conglomerate.

Please don't construe this as an argument for ditching K-mount. It's not. Though I have at times wondered if a FF ILC should move to a different mount while providing backwards compatibility through (full featured) adapters, the arguments in this thread have convinced me that there is little to be gained from this approach.

Having said that, I trust the judgement of Pentax's management and engineers. If they were to move to a different mount, it's not a move that they would undertake lightly. I'm pretty sure that I'll be jubilant over their upcoming enthusiast releases, just as I have been since I bought my K20D. It's still serving me very well, but I'll have to upgrade eventually, and I'm almost certain that my next camera body will also be a Pentax.

Seriously, where else would you go? Olympus are a brand with many similar strengths, but I don't like 4/3rds, and the corruption scandal is going to cast a long shadow over this company for quite some time to come. Fuji seems to be in the midst of a dazzling comeback, and we can only hope (for their sake) that their organic sensors live up to the hype. But then Fuji aren't likely to offer in-body shake reduction, are they?
01-02-2012, 06:42 PM   #311
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I want a new lens line up. Period. To not design a new line up of lenses for a new type of body with evolving sensor technology is stupid. Those of you with FA ltds (myself included) can continue to use them on the up coming DSLR with APS-C, not FF, sensor with a crop factor.
01-02-2012, 07:33 PM   #312
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Makes no sense.

That's a FF DSLR. I cannot see how you get the module and an OVF. The module is simply an LCD at this point, so it is far simpler to use the existing DSLR design that has the structural integrity to support larger lenses, an issue with most modular systems.

This is what you'll get:
I don't think that Simpson's car is FF. I was thinking something more like this:



Maybe the OVF is a bit of a reach, but I could see a bigger GXR body working well with something like this. The NEX cameras, after all, are little more than LCD-sized themselves.

Heck, make the "pro" GXR body big enough for MF while we're at it....
01-02-2012, 09:59 PM   #313
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fontan Quote
I want a new lens line up. Period.
Just so long as they come in 10 different colors. I'm looking forward to my Pink FA31/1.8 ltd.
01-02-2012, 10:28 PM   #314
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
Just so long as they come in 10 different colors. I'm looking forward to my Pink FA31/1.8 ltd.
Now pink is a must. That goes without saying. I hope they will again come up with goofy focal lengths too.
01-03-2012, 06:33 AM   #315
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spare Tire Quote
Sony making a Nex that doesn't use their current e-mount but another mount to fit bigger FF glass? I don't see that happening.
Sony has said nex is a FF capable setup AFAIK
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