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12-22-2011, 05:33 AM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by rvannatta Quote
to me the most earthshaking disclosure there is the potential which I had never considered for electronic shake reduction.
What does "electronic shake reduction" mean here? I've seen the term used to refer to a video technique of shifting each frame to recentre the image, but that doesn't help with still images. I've also seen it used to mean increasing ISO to increase shutter speed (and noise), but that's nothing new. If the exposure is so long that a point image moves over several pixels, I don't see what you can do electronically to fix that. You can either mechanically move the sensor to compensate, or try to undo it in software, but neither of those is "electronic".

QuoteOriginally posted by P虱 Jensen Quote
You can always buy a grip to make a small camera larger. Making large cameras smaller is not that simple....
Adding a grip doesn't make the buttons bigger. Part of the pleasure of a larger body comes from having more space for the UI, with more controls and larger controls.

12-22-2011, 06:15 AM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by selar Quote
The only one that looked comfortable was Samsung NX, but I haven't actually held one.
The bigger NX10 (and obviously NX11) is surprisingly nice to hold and use. I only wish it had a more up to date sensor and perhaps SR.
12-22-2011, 10:10 AM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by Brangdon Quote
You can either mechanically move the sensor to compensate, or try to undo it in software, but neither of those is "electronic".
.
Instead of moving the sensor, you can shift which sensor pixel that records the data for each pixel of the final image.
12-22-2011, 01:34 PM   #199
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Pentax has some kind of "electronic shake reduction" in one of their point&shoot, it's called "Pixel Track". I don't think it works as well as the proper SR.

gazonk, I'm not sure how that "shift" could work, with a single exposure. Maybe by boosting ISO and taking&combining several frames? In this case, a similar "digital stabilisation" as for movies could be used.

12-22-2011, 01:38 PM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by Brangdon Quote
... You can either mechanically move the sensor to compensate, or try to undo it in software, but neither of those is "electronic".
If software on your computer can de-blur image shake, then theoretically the camera firmware (which is really software) can be programmed do the same thing. We may have to wait few years before cameras have enough processing power to accomplish that but it could be a 100% electronic solution.

QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Instead of moving the sensor, you can shift which sensor pixel that records the data for each pixel of the final image.
Gazonk, I think you missed what Brangdon was trying to say (or maybe I missed it). For single exposure shake reduction, something (either the sensor or lens) has to mechanically move in order to stabilize the image. Imagine 2 adjacent pixels on the sensor. The camera is aimed so one pixel is recording black while the other is recording white. If the camera shakes so that both pixels record a grayish mix, electronics might not be able to undo that for a single exposure.

Perhaps a future Pentax camera will capture everything as high res video, then stack multiple frames into an even higher quality combined single exposure; HDR on steroids.
12-22-2011, 01:42 PM   #201
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I was a bit surprised as they're talking about "software SR", because until now that has been used in cheaper P&S cameras and that has been usually regarded crap. Then again, provided you have enough pixels to play with, I see no real reason why it couldn't work pretty well.
12-22-2011, 08:53 PM   #202
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for software SR: photoshop has to process an image for several seconds with a powerful computer to deshake an image
don't think you could do that in camera for practical purposes



12-23-2011, 02:11 AM   #203
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Powerful computer is relative. Ten years ago, a powerful computer was a top of the line Windows Xp rig with what, 4 gigs of ram?

I get your point that at the moment it is implausible, but who truly knows?
12-23-2011, 02:47 AM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by Spare Tire Quote
for software SR: photoshop has to process an image for several seconds with a powerful computer to deshake an image
don't think you could do that in camera for practical purposes
But what if you already know the shake amount and direction? (i.e. using accelerometers to record, and software to computationally correct it)
12-23-2011, 05:02 AM   #205
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I can count 4 different SR approaches.
1) Lens based. Larger and heavier lenses with worse optical performance compared to non stabilized versions.
2) Moving sensor. I can be very effective. Pentax, Olympus and Sony proved this.
3) Have larger sensor and then decide what part of image to use base on the shake detection. It's the arguably the best one: ie it causes no IQ reduction and the best stabilization which is only limited by shake detectors accuracy and software (which is very simple). I would love to see this approach implemented one day.
4) Have the same sensor as with #2 and try to stabilize the image by software methods only. Undoubtedly the worst approach. May cause dramatic IQ degradation.
12-23-2011, 05:31 AM   #206
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Your "best" SR approach won't work at all, because just by cropping you can't "fix" a blurry image. Something else must be added, before calling it "image stabilization"
12-23-2011, 05:50 AM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Your "best" SR approach won't work at all, because just by cropping you can't "fix" a blurry image. Something else must be added, before calling it "image stabilization"
Yes, true, shitty one. My mistake
12-24-2011, 01:33 AM   #208
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Maybe they can incorporate a very quick and sensitive accelerometer to detect how the camera is moving and adjust for any hand shake that way.
12-24-2011, 06:57 AM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kryscendo Quote
Maybe they can incorporate a very quick and sensitive accelerometer to detect how the camera is moving and adjust for any hand shake that way.
That's how the Pentax SR works currently.
12-24-2011, 07:11 AM   #210
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Steadicam rigs have existed for video for some time, but it seems to me that it should also be feasible to add a gyroscope to an SLR grip to reduce the handheld shake before the shot is taken.

Obviously, this isn't something that you'd want all the time, which is why it would be best implemented in a grip.
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