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01-07-2012, 09:35 AM   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Oh, and while were at it...
Background looks too defined for FF from that distance.

01-07-2012, 10:34 AM   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Background looks too defined for FF from that distance.
Actually, I think this could get interesting...

Personally, I'd like to know more about why people feel a particular image such as this one either is or isn't a FF. Because in the end, I think many people would end-up surprised at the results of what sensor produced what in direct comparisons.

PS. Here's another shot from that same set which was likely taken wide open w/tighter cropping.

Again I'd state that I prefer the OOF rendering(smoothness) from this image over the initial FF sample.

And though I think it's unlikely that we will ever replicate shots exactly given variables like lighting, room dimensions etc. I do however think its possible to substantiate that such arguments that APS-C could never replicate FF output are pretty much a wash don't you think?

Last edited by JohnBee; 01-07-2012 at 11:46 AM.
01-07-2012, 11:21 AM - 1 Like   #243
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Reading this thread, I cannot help but think that FF will be the most precious gift from God to mankind in that all of you guys will instantly turn into photographers that you never were before once you are infected with FF. We all know that it is not true (or do we?). This fascination with FF sensor at this forum really takes it to a level of pathological proportion that is so bizzare that it makes me wonder which part of photography some of you guys are passionate about. Many of you pretty much do the same with AF. You really don't need AF to take great pictures. Sure, it may take lots of practicing, but that is called honing your craft. I am sorry, but pictures being posted here in the days of K10d and what is being posted now, including those by 645d, from standpoint of aesthetic integrity I see no progression whatsoever. You guys were shooting fine pictures then, as you guys are now.

I acknowledge that there must be at best subtle differences in images between small sensors and FF. But, this is not the holy grail of photography and I am sure of it. If we are led to believe that FF sensor will change the whole notion of creative photography, then we are being deceived by the industry. No? Think about. During film days, there was no need to update a body every other year. Now we seem to live and die by emerging technology that don't seem to accompolish much in a way of dramatically improving photos. I would rather that they spend their money on coming up with better flash system, because that is more likely to elevate my work far more than larger sensors ever can.
01-07-2012, 11:43 AM   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Background looks too defined for FF from that distance.
I found another sample from the same set(taken with a 40mm) which I think comes much closer to the initial FF illustration in terms of framing and reference point(much larger couch ). However what's interesting here is that the OOF rendering seems much more pronounced(and smoother) than what was seen in the original FF illustration.


I think this particular illustration doesn't leave much challenge for an APS-C camera.

01-07-2012, 11:49 AM   #245
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Folks, since the instigator of the "APS-C vs Full Frame" debate has been banned from this thread... lets drop the discussion and get back to the original subject... the presumed/assumed/rumored demise of the K5... Continuing to beat the "APS-C vs Full Frame" subject up without him around to respond is hardly fair is it?

And just in case or in the event that someone opens the subject in a new thread, he will be perfectly within his rights to engage and continue his crusade against what he calls the "APS-C Scam." So you have been warned!

Mike
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Last edited by MRRiley; 01-07-2012 at 12:09 PM.
01-07-2012, 11:56 AM   #246
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This is probably a bad idea, but could someone explain to me what Mika is talking about regarding compression/decompression, etc etc. He seems to be saying that if I take a picture FF and crop out the middle part that an APS-C sensor would give me from the same lens that I'd get a different picture than if I just took it directly with an APS-C sensor, i.e. that the optical qualities are somehow inherently different from a FF (even within the APS-C area), which makes no sense to me. If he is NOT saying that, then what is he talking about with the crop factor having this and that effect? The crop factor is just a crop factor, nothing else. (i.e. any FF photo cropped to APS-C area is equivalent to an APC-C sensor taking the same photo with the same lens/aperture.)

I understand that if you try to take the SAME picture (same composition) from an FF and an APS-C and each is using the full area available to them with their respective formats, then you need different lenses, etc etc and of course you never really get the same thing. Is that all he is saying? If so, duh.


EDIT: Or, nevermind. (I started typing this post before previous post from mod was there.)
01-07-2012, 11:57 AM   #247
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Same here!
K20D has been my favorite Pentax for handling to date.
I never owned the K10D so I can't comment on that one.
The K10D and K20D shared the same body...
01-07-2012, 11:59 AM   #248
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
Folks, since the instigator of the "APS-C vs Full Frame" debate has been banned from this thread... lets drop the discussion and get back to the original subject... the presumed/assumed/rumored demise of the K5... Continuing to beat the subject up without him around to respond is hardly fair is it?

And just in case or in the event that someone opens the subject in a new thread, he will be perfectly within his rights to engage and continue his crusade against what he calls the "APS-C Scam." So you have been warned!

Mike
PF Moderation Team
Oh crap!

I had no idea he was no longer part of the discussion. That's to bad though

Anyways, having shot both platforms, I find the FF/APS-C topic to be very enlightening. And the main reason for this(in my case) is where I wanted to replace my FF with a K-5. And so I researched and purchased a number of lenses to accomplish that. However... I think it's quite tragic that this particular topic as a whole would be banned because I think there is a wealth of information to be had for those of us who either experienced or remember film etc. And so I hope that the staff at PF, will reconsider banning this particular topic.

PS. is there any place that members could petition that a ban be lifted?

01-07-2012, 12:04 PM   #249
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
Oh crap!

I had no idea he was no longer part of the discussion. That's to bad though

Anyways, having shot both platforms, I find the FF/APS-C topic to be very enlightening. And the main reason for this(in my case) is where I wanted to replace my FF with a K-5. And so I researched and purchased a number of lenses to accomplish that. However... I think it's quite tragic that this particular topic as a whole would be banned because I think there is a wealth of information to be had for those of us who either experienced or remember film etc. And so I hope that the staff at PF, will reconsider banning this particular topic myself.

PS. is there anywhere members could petition such a thing?
John,

The APS-C vs FF topic is not banned. The member who started the flame war and dragged this thread off to world's end was simply banned from the thread after it was reopened. The intent of my post was to just remind folks to keep this thread on topic. You are free to renew the APS-C vs FF discussion in a new thread if you wish but as I said, everyone, including mika will be welcome to reengage.

Mike
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01-07-2012, 12:10 PM   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by JohnBee Quote
I think this could get interesting...

Do you feel this is not or cannot be FF?
And if so, could you explain in detail why you feel this way?
It was a bit tongue-in-cheek because you can't know what it is without knowing focal length and aperture used, and even then it's just a guess unless you could see the same subject at equivalent FOV from the same distance, Then you'd know.

Another way to put it: It's not an "identify this one image!" situation, it's a "given the choice between these two, which would you prefer?" situation.

(However, to me it looked like a typical aps-c shot or maybe a stopped-down FF shot, maybe at 35mm or 50mm.)

You can have a great, shallow DOF shot with aps-c, that's not the point - the point is that you don't have the effective extended aperture range that FF gives you in those typical shooting situations.

It's an aesthetic point of contention (subjective), backed up by the equivalence math (objective), and as I said, a survey of the lenses available (practical.)

QuoteQuote:
And though I think it's unlikely that we will ever replicate shots exactly given variables like lighting, room dimensions etc. I do however think its possible to substantiate that such arguments that APS-C could never replicate FF output are pretty much a wash don't you think?
No, I don't think. aps-c can come close, and in fact close-enough for most folks, but until they make 16mm f.1.8 lenses for aps-c, or 23mm f/1.2, or a $110 35mm f/1.2, 120 f/1.8, etc, etc, it can't quite match it.

On the long end it gets hard for FF to economically (in size and price) match aps-c output when you discount cropping, but wide-to-mid-telephoto gives some advantages to FF.

EDIT: wrote this ^^ before I saw the qualms about starting yet another FF vs aps-c debate. Carry on.
.
01-07-2012, 12:17 PM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
John,

The APS-C vs FF topic is not banned. The member who started the flame war and dragged this thread off to world's end was simply banned from the thread after it was reopened. The intent of my post was to just remind folks to keep this thread on topic. You are free to renew the APS-C vs FF discussion in a new thread if you wish but as I said, everyone, including mika will be welcome to reengage.

Mike
PF Moderation Team
Aha ic.
I misunderstood.
I guess finding out the original FF/APS-C poster was banned shocked me a bit. - All is well now.

PS. I thought of making a FF/APS-C comparison thread in the past, but since I no longer own a FF body, I highly doubt that's going to happen now.
Though I find the invitation to challenge(less the mud slinging and insults) to be a very exciting means to build a case study with.
Anyways... I was so caught-up in the FF/APS-C topic that I never even took notice of the title of the thread - talk about getting side tracked.
01-07-2012, 12:18 PM   #252
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
EDIT: wrote this ^^ before I saw the qualms about starting yet another FF vs aps-c debate. Carry on. .
HAHAHA!
The force is strong with this one(topic)
01-07-2012, 12:20 PM   #253
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Well, so much for Mike's request to get the thread back on track.

Move along, nothing more to see here.
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