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01-18-2012, 11:42 PM   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Thinking about it again ...

then I would say that 3 months is enough time to set up a strategy for new Pentax. And to prepare a press conference at CES just to tell the user base that Pentax will be back. It did not happen.

Thinking about it again, they did not do their homework. Period.
The last train is gone?

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/1785398-post57.html

01-19-2012, 12:52 AM   #212
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QuoteOriginally posted by P虱 Jensen Quote
I don't think thats the case. Pentax was No.3 in DSLR marketshare in 2011....
Let's put this in perspective. I live near the Brooklyn side of the Brooklyn Bridge and fairly regularly walk it to downtown Manhattan on weekends. In good weather this is a stadium's worth of tourists from all over, US and abroad, because on the NYC side you're at Ground Zero. A gagillion people with a billion cameras, every weekend, and I note what they're using because I am actively looking for a Pentax, DSLR mostly, but I'll note a Pentax anything if I see one. The God's honest truth is that I haven't seen a single Pentax on any of these walks, among seas of cameras, in about a year. In 2010 maybe I'd see one every four times I went. I literally can't remember the last time I saw a single Pentax camera anywhere in NYC in any tourist area, like Times Square, where you can literally look at any corner at the crowd waiting for the light to change and count 15 cameras, and do it again at the next light change 30 seconds later with a whole new crowd and do this all day long. I will bet anyone you could do this all day long at any location, see literally 7,500 cameras and never see a Pentax. That's just a fact. That's how rare we are. Might there be a few hidden? Sure. But I literally have not seen a Pentax in the wild in nyc (Central Park, Botanic Gardens, Empire State Building, you name it) in literally a year. Even if we fake that number to one a day (an insane boost) it still means any figure above .02 % is not what the reality is. 3%? 1.5 %? I challenge anyone to go where cameras are being toted and come up with anything NEAR one out of every 500 cameras.

I love my K5 (and I loved my K10D) but let's be real. I know it sounds harsh, but Pentax's version of being #3 was a gillion for #1, a billion for #2 and six for #3.
01-19-2012, 01:08 AM   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by P虱 Jensen Quote
I don't think thats the case. Pentax was No.3 in DSLR marketshare in 2011....
Only in K100D and K10D time. Very brief period.
01-19-2012, 02:14 AM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by hut234 Quote
Even if we fake that number to one a day (an insane boost) it still means any figure above .02 % is not what the reality is. 3%? 1.5 %? I challenge anyone to go where cameras are being toted and come up with anything NEAR one out of every 500 cameras.
I don't think that would be a problem in Europe (if you're talking about DSLRs, not cameras in general (then they're all from Apple )).

01-19-2012, 04:19 AM   #215
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Yes, might be something like 1 in 20 in France... This figure doesn't come from anything official, just general looking-around.
01-19-2012, 04:35 AM   #216
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France is indeed a very special market for Pentax. It's not for no reason that Pentax france even sponsored a French soccer team.
01-19-2012, 05:57 AM   #217
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QuoteOriginally posted by P虱 Jensen Quote
I don't think thats the case. Pentax was No.3 in DSLR marketshare in 2011....
They definitely weren't. Sony was.
01-19-2012, 07:05 AM - 1 Like   #218
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QuoteOriginally posted by P虱 Jensen Quote
I don't think thats the case. Pentax was No.3 in DSLR marketshare in 2011....
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Sony and Olympus also lost market share.
Canikon was always tough to compete with. Minolta failed and Olympus has its current crisis.

Nonetheless, Pentax always was rather successful due to a good pace of innovation and a focus on enthusiast photographers. They lost a fair part of their market because of their erratic approach to digital. But with the K10D, they had started to gain lost ground again. At the height of success of the K10D, Pentax market share was about 6% and Pentax was #3 indeed, with close followers being Olympus and Minolta/Sony (about 5%).

Remember that the Pentax aquisition was an unfriendly take over which shows how strong others believed Pentax to be. Not the kind of bargain sale which Ricoh profited from to aquire Pentax.

My current Pentax market share estimate is 3%, some sources see it lower, some higher. But to say that it was halfed during Hoya supervision is fair IMHO. In retrospect, Hoya paid a fortune for their lousy job which actually makes me smile a bit. (*)

___
(*) About $ 1billion lost (assuming Pentax cameras was ~1/2 the value) which is (optimistically assuming 400,000 SLRs/y sold over 3 1/2 years) is $700 lost per camera sold! In other words, Hoya had to "return" ALL sales revenue from SLR sale ... It would have been a real return if the original shareholders of Pentax would have aquired rather than Ricoh.


Sony's market share during this time has doubled or tripled, according to various sources. Only if you exclude their SLT or NEX series as being non SLR there is a way to see lost market shares ... But if you consider the overall system camera market then Sony now is a solid #3 with about 1/2 the size of Canon or Nikon. A share Pentax under a different management could hold.

However, I seriously doubt Ricoh is entrepreneur enough to run risks as high as Sony management did and still does. But as we can see, it is required to gain market share: you have to accept higher risks than the market leaders or otherwise, their bigger economy of scale will make you fail sooner or later. Hoya avoided risk at all price and fortunately, their shareholders who let it happen paid a high prize for this.

QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Fake and even if it were true, no way such a camera could even rival the K-5.


Last edited by falconeye; 01-19-2012 at 07:16 AM.
01-19-2012, 07:27 AM   #219
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Fake and even if it were true, no way such a camera could even rival the K-5.
It's mirrorless I think...I mean there is no LX design mirrorless camera from Pentax.
But OM-digital camera will be....
No need to compare with K-5 at all.

Last edited by ogl; 01-19-2012 at 07:45 AM.
01-19-2012, 07:39 AM   #220
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
Pentax has won lots of awards for its products, because they're solid and they offer good price-to-performance. They also lost market share during the past 3 years. How do you reconcile those two facts? Marketing. It's just that you can't find a Pentax camera in any shops, its not on the virtual shelf at many internet sellers - how many non enthusiasts shop at Adorama or B&H, really? They got the K-r into WalMart in the US, finally, but only AFTER it was discontinued???? Add to that the main US marketing guy sounds clueless and is apparently disdainful of this forum, heck we have to rely on PentaxUK for answers to our questions, and you have a pretty bad picture IMHO.

My hope is that Ricoh will keep letting the designers come up with excellent cameras and they will put money into both marketing and increasing the QC/QA for the production. Add in some investment in peripherals (modern ones) and you have a real winning combination IMHO. Remember, Ricoh has a lot of experience in marketing better products against established brands and winning.
Completely agree, Pentax could be doing much much better (at least in the US) if it only marketed its products.

As for the "last train" comment, the point is not that that Oly would be better than the K-5 (it wouldn't be), the point is that if Pentax released a superb mirrorless before the rest, it would have a good chance of reclaiming a ton of market share. If the spec's on that Oly are correct, likely the only major difference from the Pentax version would be the sensor size. Hence, "Pentax's last chance train has left the station". That said, since that camera is m43, I think there's still a few trolleys hiding around the corner.
01-19-2012, 11:50 AM   #221
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
No need to compare with K-5 at all.
It's all about this comparison ...

The difference in IQ between APSC (K-5) and FT now is so huge that オFT will run into trouble between Nikon V1 and Sony NEX. If they cannot solve their sensor tech problem, they're going to disappear. So, why care about yet another body design. I see no train here.
01-19-2012, 01:59 PM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The difference in IQ between APSC (K-5) and FT now is so huge that オFT will run into trouble between Nikon V1 and Sony NEX. If they cannot solve their sensor tech problem, they're going to disappear. So, why care about yet another body design. I see no train here.
I think it's a case of good enough. APS-C sensors have improved considerably, but I'm still happy with what I get from my K10D. And I'm very happy with my E-PL2 as well. The difference provided by the K-5 is meaningful for people that have top demands, but not for the casual user that buys an entry-level SLR to get better IQ than from their phone/P&S. In time, I expect Panasonic will improve their sensors and while they'll always trail a bit behind APS-C ones, the difference will be compensated by the other advantages of their system.

If Olympus releases a weather sealed camera, I think it's a good step towards capturing higher end market.
01-19-2012, 02:29 PM   #223
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
It's all about this comparison ...

The difference in IQ between APSC (K-5) and FT now is so huge that オFT will run into trouble between Nikon V1 and Sony NEX. If they cannot solve their sensor tech problem, they're going to disappear. So, why care about yet another body design. I see no train here.
QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
I think it's a case of good enough. APS-C sensors have improved considerably, but I'm still happy with what I get from my K10D. And I'm very happy with my E-PL2 as well. The difference provided by the K-5 is meaningful for people that have top demands, but not for the casual user that buys an entry-level SLR to get better IQ than from their phone/P&S. In time, I expect Panasonic will improve their sensors and while they'll always trail a bit behind APS-C ones, the difference will be compensated by the other advantages of their system.

If Olympus releases a weather sealed camera, I think it's a good step towards capturing higher end market.
I agree with Laurentiu. I have both the K-5 and Panasonic GH2, arguably the best cameras in their respective classes. The K-5 leads the GH2 in IQ, but it's closer than a lot of people think.

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[/IMG]

For people buying entry level dSLRs for documenting their life and have no photographic ambitions, M43 already provides all the IQ that they will ever need. It's in other areas - AF for sports, in particular - where they still appear to fall short for casual shooters.

The interesting thing about all this mirrorless talk, is that the photo enthusiasts and early adopters point to their small size relative to dSLRs. That size difference is most pronounced when using primes, but outside of the world of people that post on places like PentaxForums, the world uses zooms. Once you put a 5x or 10x zoom on an APS-C prime, the size difference diminishes. Same with M43 to a slightly lesser degree.

With that in mind, those towers of entry-level Canon and Nikon dSLRs that you see in Best Buy aren't going to be replaced until a mirrorless zoom kit is priced competitive and significantly smaller...and marketed and distributed as well as Canon and Nikon do it. So far, the Panasonic 14-42x collapsing zoom mated to a small M43 body is leading the way, but there's still a price premium.

As sensor quality improves, it may actually be the smaller sensor mirrorless systems - Nikon 1 and Pentax's Q - that may be in the sweet spot, priced competitively, good enough IQ for the snapshooter, and significantly smaller zoom kits than a dSLR...
01-19-2012, 04:48 PM   #224
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QuoteOriginally posted by hut234 Quote
Let's put this in perspective. I live near the Brooklyn side of the Brooklyn Bridge and fairly regularly walk it to downtown Manhattan on weekends. In good weather this is a stadium's worth of tourists from all over, US and abroad, because on the NYC side you're at Ground Zero. A gagillion people with a billion cameras, every weekend, and I note what they're using because I am actively looking for a Pentax, DSLR mostly, but I'll note a Pentax anything if I see one. The God's honest truth is that I haven't seen a single Pentax on any of these walks, among seas of cameras, in about a year. .
Well I'm not in New York but I see Pentax DSLR often among the tourists around here regardless where they are from. I've even spotted a few DA* lenses! I don't think I've ever seen a Sony though.
01-19-2012, 04:49 PM   #225
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
They lost a fair part of their market because of their erratic approach to digital.
Correction! Their erratic approach in general...
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