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01-19-2012, 04:53 PM   #226
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
My current Pentax market share estimate is 3%, some sources see it lower, some higher. But to say that it was halfed during Hoya supervision is fair IMHO. In retrospect, Hoya paid a fortune for their lousy job which actually makes me smile a bit. (*)
..
According to the numbers published in Japan recently (no I don't have the link at hand) their marketshare was around 7% (if memory serves me right) surpassing Sony whose DSLR sales has dropped dramatically.

01-19-2012, 04:59 PM   #227
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffshaddix Quote
As for the "last train" comment, the point is not that that Oly would be better than the K-5 (it wouldn't be), the point is that if Pentax released a superb mirrorless before the rest, it would have a good chance of reclaiming a ton of market share.
What market share are we talking about? Mirrorless cameras won't increase Pentax market share in DSLR per definition!
Nikon and Canon have not made any serious entry into the mirrorless market probably because the already sells lots of mirrorless P&S and have a hard time keeping up the DSLR production to meet the ever (it seems) increasing demand.
What Pentax can do is to try to get a share of the mirrorless market. but I think they will do it by making expensive cameras in relatively moderate volumes.

Last edited by P虱 Jensen; 01-19-2012 at 05:05 PM.
01-19-2012, 05:44 PM   #228
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
The interesting thing about all this mirrorless talk, is that the photo enthusiasts and early adopters point to their small size relative to dSLRs. That size difference is most pronounced when using primes, but outside of the world of people that post on places like PentaxForums, the world uses zooms. Once you put a 5x or 10x zoom on an APS-C prime, the size difference diminishes. Same with M43 to a slightly lesser degree.
I think the size of the system is advertised so much because it is easy to understand, like the number of megapixels. But my E-PL2 combo is not really any smaller than a K-x combo - I actually like it *because* of that.

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
With that in mind, those towers of entry-level Canon and Nikon dSLRs that you see in Best Buy aren't going to be replaced until a mirrorless zoom kit is priced competitive and significantly smaller...and marketed and distributed as well as Canon and Nikon do it. So far, the Panasonic 14-42x collapsing zoom mated to a small M43 body is leading the way, but there's still a price premium.
I think this barrier has dropped too. The E-PM1 with its kit lens was available for $450 this holiday. I'm not sure what DSLR package can be obtained at that price.
01-19-2012, 10:42 PM   #229
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
For people buying entry level dSLRs for documenting their life and have no photographic ambitions, M43 already provides all the IQ that they will ever need
The problem is today's phone would work too.

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
As sensor quality improves, it may actually be the smaller sensor mirrorless systems - Nikon 1 and Pentax's Q - that may be in the sweet spot, priced competitively, good enough IQ for the snapshooter, and significantly smaller zoom kits than a dSLR...
A 32 inch TV provides all the image quality you'll ever need, yet the industry has moved on to much larger sizes. People buying DSLRs instead of a P&S want the best, not "decent" or "good enough" IQ. The bigger the sensor, made with the same tech, the better. What's the point of the 645D if full-frame is good enough? Or a phone?

01-19-2012, 11:11 PM   #230
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QuoteOriginally posted by pz1fan Quote
A 32 inch TV provides all the image quality you'll ever need, yet the industry has moved on to much larger sizes. People buying DSLRs instead of a P&S want the best, not "decent" or "good enough" IQ.
Then why are most of them still shooting with kit lenses? Sure there are those who will buy the expensive primes and fast zooms, but I'm talk about the heart of the dSLR market - entry-level bodies with kit zooms.
01-20-2012, 01:01 AM   #231
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QuoteOriginally posted by pz1fan Quote
A 32 inch TV provides all the image quality you'll ever need
No, it doesn't! I already think our 40'" is too small for 1080p watched at 3-4 meters distance. When 80" screens with 4k video becomes common, you'll wonder why people bothered watching movies on 32" screens.
01-20-2012, 01:11 AM   #232
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QuoteOriginally posted by pz1fan Quote
People buying DSLRs instead of a P&S want the best, not "decent" or "good enough" IQ.
Actually, they usually don't have much of an idea of what they want. They want cameras that can produce images "like this" or "like that", as they have seen other people producing. And they have budgets under $1000. Try explaining to them that they cannot get "the best" IQ on that budget and they will tell you that they don't care, because they don't know yet how serious their interest really is.
01-20-2012, 02:05 AM   #233
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QuoteOriginally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Quote
Actually, they usually don't have much of an idea of what they want. They want cameras that can produce images "like this" or "like that", as they have seen other people producing.
Actually, some of the moms and dads that I talk to have very specific needs: They need something that takes useable pictures in low light when their kids are performing in school/doing indoor sports etc. Smartphones are out of the question, and they quickly discover that what was supposed to be a pretty good P&S won't work either. Indeed, this kind of photography is one of the things that makes me want to upgrade my K10D too (OK, I like to do low light shots besides the "family snapshots", too, but a lot of my "photography-as-hobby" shots are done at iso 100, where newer cameras are just marginally better than the K10D, if at all).

01-20-2012, 11:15 AM   #234
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Actually, some of the moms and dads that I talk to have very specific needs
Oh, the needs are always clear. I meant that they don't know what equipment they want. And they won't care a bit about sensor size and dxomark scores. They would probably be happier with a Nikon V1 than with a K-5 DSLR.
01-20-2012, 06:50 PM   #235
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I agree with Laurentiu. I have both the K-5 and Panasonic GH2, arguably the best cameras in their respective classes. The K-5 leads the GH2 in IQ, but it's closer than a lot of people think.
I've certainly exaggerated my point. Credit granted.

Good may be good enough in case of オFT. But nevertheless, there will now be competition "from below" with offers like a Nikon V1 which has the same IQ. This is why I do still think that an OM-D wouldn't shake the market.

Btw, your image comparison illustrates low light noise. But the K-5 excels in dynamic range more than in low light performance.
01-21-2012, 12:10 AM   #236
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QuoteOriginally posted by P虱 Jensen Quote
What market share are we talking about? Mirrorless cameras won't increase Pentax market share in DSLR per definition!
Nikon and Canon have not made any serious entry into the mirrorless market probably because the already sells lots of mirrorless P&S and have a hard time keeping up the DSLR production to meet the ever (it seems) increasing demand.
What Pentax can do is to try to get a share of the mirrorless market. but I think they will do it by making expensive cameras in relatively moderate volumes.
Canon will this year.
01-21-2012, 12:45 AM   #237
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeffshaddix Quote
Completely agree, Pentax could be doing much much better (at least in the US) if it only marketed its products.
As far as in the U.S., the whole flagship store within Willoughby's, the way Pentax came from needing desperately to have some true retail presence, to THAT being their solution, to it in fact being a joke of a nothing display in a store that the locals regard as a place only a fool would set foot in, has made being a dedicated Pentax user really frustrating. I feel lucky to live in a city with B & H and Adorama, where if it's worth carrying they'll carry it, regardless of how tiny a niche it is.

The invisibility of Pentax cameras in the wild in the US is absolutely not due to shooters turning their noses up at it. In the rare cases they know it exists they can't buy them where they live except for online. In the months before I pulled the trigger on upgrading my K10D to a K5 in Dec of 2010 I happened to be on the road a lot on the east coast. During that time I could barely find any camera store that carried Pentax and could never, in two months of sporadic traveling that Nov and Dec, find ANY camera store that had a K5 in stock/on display so that I could check it out, or that planned to carry it should I be back in town next month. This was within about a 500 mile radius of NYC and was absolutely no definitive investigation (didn't hit Boston or Philly, was in DC, Balt, Hartford, etc, blah blah : ) but I couldn't buy a K5 under any circumstances in these cities except for online, which made no sense, since I always knew that if all else failed I'd be get it back in NYC, which I did. But this isn't about the K5, which may have had a bit of a quirky start. These weren't enthusiastic dealers telling me that it's a new model and they can't get much stock yet. They just looked at me like I was from Mars and knew and cared not about Pentax, though they were as supposedly authorized dealers. Had I been looking for ANY specific other Pentax model in production at the time I would have just gotten something else, because 90% of the sales people just glazed over when I said I was looking at Pentax. My conclusion during that time was that Pentax was doing a great job of preventing people from buying their cameras.

Same as the Willoughby's deal. That could only have been brokered by someone whose goal was to keep Pentaxes out of the hands of photographers, or else it was someone scarily out of touch with how to get people in the US to realize that Pentax was still in the camera business. Either way it was bad for years before that, that was a bad year, and since then it has not changed here in the states. It doesn't matter how incredible a product is if the brand is as poorly marketed as Pentax is here.
01-21-2012, 05:39 AM   #238
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Pentax K-r scored 3% in Japan for all of 2011

K-r available in 100 colors in Japan managed to take 3% of the market in 2011.

Pentax K-5 was not a Top 20 camera in Japan for all of 2011.

Pentax Q did not place in Top 10 mirrorless in Japan in 2011.


Google ツストカ


2008 tech Canon 5D Mark II took 1.5% of Japan's Dslr market in 2011.
One 5D Mark II Full Frame sold for every TWO Pentax K-r in 2011.
And 5D Mark II comes in just one color.




QuoteOriginally posted by P虱 Jensen Quote
According to the numbers published in Japan recently (no I don't have the link at hand) their marketshare was around 7% (if memory serves me right) surpassing Sony whose DSLR sales has dropped dramatically.

Last edited by Samsungian; 01-21-2012 at 05:45 AM.
01-21-2012, 07:17 AM   #239
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
K-r available in 100 colors in Japan managed to take 3% of the market in 2011. .
This statistic is meaningless as it includes mirrorless which per definition is not an SLR.
7% marketshare of Pentax in DSLR seems about correct.
01-21-2012, 08:41 AM   #240
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QuoteOriginally posted by Samsungian Quote
2008 tech Canon 5D Mark II took 1.5% of Japan's Dslr market in 2011.
One 5D Mark II Full Frame sold for every TWO Pentax K-r in 2011.
And 5D Mark II comes in just one color.
Well, in that case, with the K-r discontinued, I can look forward to the K-5 coming in a myriad assortment of colors.

Really, I don't care as long as they re-issue the FA* 250-600 in a myriad assortment of colors.
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