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12-29-2007, 04:50 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by sir_bazz Quote
I hope it supports true TTL metering as this is one of the reasons I still have the DS.
Off the sensor TTL is dead. And it won't come back.

No other manufacturers have this, not even in camera bodies costing 5 to 6x. The available space in the body is too precious for a duplicate flash systems which cater for maybe 0.01% of the market demands. It is not a marketable feature; and there may be technological barrier.

In future, when Live View technology matures, and the main CCD/CMOS sensor can be used for metering, it should allow better metering accuracy for both P-TTL flash and non-flash shots.

12-29-2007, 06:21 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
In future, when Live View technology matures, and the main CCD/CMOS sensor can be used for metering, it should allow better metering accuracy for both P-TTL flash and non-flash shots.
We should only have to wait about 4 weeks for some news in that vein.

cheers,
Rick
12-29-2007, 06:42 PM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Off the sensor TTL is dead. And it won't come back.

No other manufacturers have this, not even in camera bodies costing 5 to 6x. The available space in the body is too precious for a duplicate flash systems which cater for maybe 0.01% of the market demands. It is not a marketable feature; and there may be technological barrier.
Who says backward *compatibility* is not a marketable feature?? In fact, it is a very important thing for old user. Especially considering that the limited flash unit offer in the Pentax land, this would be very important, e.g., which ring macro flash Pentax has which can be used on Pentax DSLRs? Of course the answer is None.

Also, your supposition of TTL OTF sensor occupy much space is incorrect, the *ist D and DS both has that and there is only one more small opening under the mirror box. In fact, it is just an old but reliable technology which is proven. My experience with the TTL auto flash on *ist D is *very* accurate, far more accurate and consistent than any those P-TTL with any Pentax P-TTL gear combo.

QuoteQuote:
In future, when Live View technology matures, and the main CCD/CMOS sensor can be used for metering, it should allow better metering accuracy for both P-TTL flash and non-flash shots.
When old and cheap technology could do the job, I cannot understand why Pentax should invent something that no body has ever done and succeeded before.
12-29-2007, 07:25 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Also, your supposition of TTL OTF sensor occupy much space is incorrect, the *ist D and DS both has that and there is only one more small opening under the mirror box. In fact, it is just an old but reliable technology which is proven. My experience with the TTL auto flash on *ist D is *very* accurate, far more accurate and consistent than any those P-TTL with any Pentax P-TTL gear combo.



When old and cheap technology could do the job, I cannot understand why Pentax should invent something that no body has ever done and succeeded before.
last i knew, OTF metering didn't work on DSLRs.. because they lack film.





anyways..

12-29-2007, 07:34 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Who says backward *compatibility* is not a marketable feature?? In fact, it is a very important thing for old user. Especially considering that the limited flash unit offer in the Pentax land, this would be very important, e.g., which ring macro flash Pentax has which can be used on Pentax DSLRs? Of course the answer is None.

Also, your supposition of TTL OTF sensor occupy much space is incorrect, the *ist D and DS both has that and there is only one more small opening under the mirror box. In fact, it is just an old but reliable technology which is proven. My experience with the TTL auto flash on *ist D is *very* accurate, far more accurate and consistent than any those P-TTL with any Pentax P-TTL gear combo.



When old and cheap technology could do the job, I cannot understand why Pentax should invent something that no body has ever done and succeeded before.
TTL-OTF flash on a DSLR is very difficult to do. Only Pentax and Fuji ever tried and both abandoned it after a couple models. And the D only worked at ISO 400 while the DS works at 200 and 400 only (You can of course use FEC to effectively get TTL flash to ISO 1600). The issue is the very high reflectivity of the sensor, it throws things off quite badly. I'd suspect a moving sensor makes this even worse.

If you want reliable flash on a Pentax, put your flash into Auto Thyristor mode. Works better than P-TTL or TTL for direct flash 90% of the time.
12-29-2007, 07:37 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Off the sensor TTL is dead. And it won't come back.

No other manufacturers have this, not even in camera bodies costing 5 to 6x. The available space in the body is too precious for a duplicate flash systems which cater for maybe 0.01% of the market demands. It is not a marketable feature; and there may be technological barrier.

In future, when Live View technology matures, and the main CCD/CMOS sensor can be used for metering, it should allow better metering accuracy for both P-TTL flash and non-flash shots.
I agree unfortunately. when compatibility features 'go away' they will never return.

I finally gave in and put a new AF 360 FGz flash on my christmas list. I've still got a ringlite problem, but I used it in the manual mode on my K2 before I had a TTL body. One of my daughters had her eye on my *istD, which I let her have, and now since I want a 'back up camera for my K10, I'm going to have no choice but buy buy a new K20 when they show up.

I've taken a few photos with the AF 360FGZ and my first opinions are fairly favorable.
the fact that it will do bounce flash is a big plus over the af360fz and most of the other TTL flashes which would not do bounce flash.
12-29-2007, 07:57 PM   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by mawz Quote
TTL-OTF flash on a DSLR is very difficult to do. Only Pentax and Fuji ever tried and both abandoned it after a couple models. And the D only worked at ISO 400 while the DS works at 200 and 400 only (You can of course use FEC to effectively get TTL flash to ISO 1600). The issue is the very high reflectivity of the sensor, it throws things off quite badly. I'd suspect a moving sensor makes this even worse.

If you want reliable flash on a Pentax, put your flash into Auto Thyristor mode. Works better than P-TTL or TTL for direct flash 90% of the time.
I can say what you guessed is absolutely wrong as there is the counterexample of the *ist D and my TTL Pentax flash guns which were made in the 80s. No issue here, very accurate and consistent even at ISO 400. No problem in total darkness and under daylight outdoor.

If the flash system works flawlessly up to ISO 400, what else do you actually need? To shoot with flash at ISO 1600 ??
12-29-2007, 09:29 PM   #83
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Put DA21 or DA40 on K200D - and you will get compact DSLR set to shoot landscapes.

12-29-2007, 09:36 PM   #84
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One think I did not like about K200D is lack of continuous shooting setting on the same M, A focus switch
12-29-2007, 09:57 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
I can say what you guessed is absolutely wrong as there is the counterexample of the *ist D and my TTL Pentax flash guns which were made in the 80s. No issue here, very accurate and consistent even at ISO 400. No problem in total darkness and under daylight outdoor.

If the flash system works flawlessly up to ISO 400, what else do you actually need? To shoot with flash at ISO 1600 ??

I certainly no no problems with thte *istd and TTL. so far as I know Pentax has never explained why they quit supporting the system they had used for 20 years.

Maybe there is a good technical reason, or a good cost reason, or maybe just a intentional reason to force everyone to buy a new flash unit.

Absent any official explanation that passes the laugh test it has been my assumption that
the true reason was the latter. After all they have to make a living and if I keep on using my 20 year old flash, they never will make the living they need.

In fairness to them though it is clear that there are a lot more 'things' going on inside
the digital cameras such as now a likely 'live view' reader, and trying to collect accurate information to feed a flash with all these other things going on might well be increasingly difficult with the increased potential for a 'feed back loop' with the data received controlling the flash, and the flash is controlling the data received
12-30-2007, 01:15 AM   #86
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Ah so a flash system which
  • needs space in the mirror box
  • needs special metering system (not the available light metering system)
  • is reliable only at 200 and 400 ISO but not any other ISO value

is something you would want to maintain?
12-30-2007, 01:50 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by RiceHigh Quote
Who says backward *compatibility* is not a marketable feature?? In fact, it is a very important thing for old user.
As I said, this feature may be important to the 0.01% of the market, and most of them are in this forum or dpreview

It is not marketable in the sense that it would not affect the sales figures at all.

QuoteQuote:
When old and cheap technology could do the job, I cannot understand why Pentax should invent something that no body has ever done and succeeded before.
No, the old TTL system cannot do the job of a modern flash system.

The market demands these from a modern flash system:
- High Speed Sync
- Multiple Wireless TTL Flash
- Matrix metering

Especially the first two features are a must have for a modern flash system. And this is the exact reason why we need P-TTL.

And it simply does not make economic sense to have two duplicate flash systems.
12-30-2007, 01:52 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by rvannatta Quote
Maybe there is a good technical reason, or a good cost reason, or maybe just a intentional reason to force everyone to buy a new flash unit.
No conspiracy theory here. Pentax needs a flash system which can do High Speed Sync and Multiple Wireless TTL flash. These two are good enough reasons to implement P-TTL. And the cost benefit is a good incentive too.
12-30-2007, 02:03 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by nosnoop Quote
Off the sensor TTL is dead. And it won't come back.
I could live with that if there was an available replacement for my AF-140C.

bazz.
12-30-2007, 02:05 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by sir_bazz Quote
I could live with that if there was an available replacement for my AF-140C.
Have you considered those LED Macro ring lights?
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