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02-03-2012, 06:11 AM   #1876
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Against the reasoning of most photographers, the viewfinderless Panasonic GX1 is a hit while the cheaper viewfindered and tilt-screened Panasonic G3 is a yawn.

Human beings are fickle, irrational creatures. All the logical arguments on the Internets isn't going to change that
It's not really that irrational either. The point is that compared to the GX1, the G3 is quite a bit bulkier and heavier. And it looks like a DSLR, so if you realize that you want a viewfinder, why not sacrifice a little more weight and buy a small DSLR instead? Consequently, even in Japan the D3100 is the top seller, and even the K-r sells better than any mirrorless with a VF.

02-03-2012, 07:11 AM   #1878
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The irritating part is that every website so far that I have seen a negative review puts the Yellow version up front and doesn't even show the black or white versions. The black version looks nothing like a toy.
02-03-2012, 07:46 AM   #1879
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QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
The irritating part is that every website so far that I have seen a negative review puts the Yellow version up front and doesn't even show the black or white versions. The black version looks nothing like a toy.
It gets more page views that way. If they wrote an article with the black or silver and a headline that said "On second thought this new camera from Pentax looks rather nice" no one would click on it. Instead they put the yellow one up with a headline reading "LOL Pentax toy". More clicks, more ad revenue.

02-03-2012, 07:53 AM   #1880
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
I mostly agree with your sentiments, but you seem to forget that this camera type is selling like hotcakes!

Just have a look at the BCN yearly ranking. I don't read japanese, but google-translating indicates that the second table shows the 10 most sold mirrorless cameras in Japan in 2011:

BCN 2011 rankings

Do you notice something? None of these cameras have a viewfinder! Panasonic makes some great cameras with viewfinders (GH2 and G3) - but it's the viewfinderless models that sell, with GF2 even getting 5,6% and rank 4 of the total DSLR+mirrorless market, only beaten by the most popular beginner DSLRs of Canon and Nikon.

As much as I hate stretched-arms-cameras myself, I have to admit that Sony, Olympus and Panasomic must make a lot of money with them. In fact, the camera business of troubled Olympus would have been completely dead by now if it hadn't been for their viewfinderless cameras (the combined sales of the E-PL* models is more than three times the K-r sales)...

Still most of the mirrorless in this list has an optional EVF. I got my wife an E-PL2 for her birthday last year and the optional EVF never comes off the hotshoe.

So a built-in EVF is not needed but an optional hotshoe EVF is. Why couldn't Pentax just add the EVF port from the GXR and sell the GXR EVF as an option.
02-03-2012, 07:56 AM   #1881
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
BCN 2011 rankings

Do you notice something? None of these cameras have a viewfinder! Panasonic makes some great cameras with viewfinders (GH2 and G3) - but it's the viewfinderless models that sell, with GF2 even getting 5,6% and rank 4 of the total DSLR+mirrorless market, only beaten by the most popular beginner DSLRs of Canon and Nikon.
The GF2 was such a dud that towards the end of the year it was being extremely heavily discounted. With the kit zoom they were under the price of a lot of advanced P&S in the 4Q, and their firmware got hacked which added capability which made it a very good deal regardless of it's shortcomings. And it does have an EVF, it takes the DMW-LVF1 clip-on, so if you want it you have the option. The E-PL2 has a detachable available, as does the E-PL1, another heavily discounted end of cycle model. Of the cameras mentioned at the link, the GF3 and the NEX3 are the only ones that have no provision for an EVF.

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Against the reasoning of most photographers, the viewfinderless Panasonic GX1 is a hit while the cheaper viewfindered and tilt-screened Panasonic G3 is a yawn.
Again, the GX1 has an optional EVF, the LVF2.
02-03-2012, 08:17 AM - 1 Like   #1882
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QuoteOriginally posted by DaveBlack Quote
Still most of the mirrorless in this list has an optional EVF. I got my wife an E-PL2 for her birthday last year and the optional EVF never comes off the hotshoe.
Yes, but I suspect she belongs to a small minority.
02-03-2012, 08:18 AM   #1883
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QuoteOriginally posted by junyo Quote
The GF2 was such a dud that towards the end of the year it was being extremely heavily discounted. With the kit zoom they were under the price of a lot of advanced P&S in the 4Q, and their firmware got hacked which added capability which made it a very good deal regardless of it's shortcomings. And it does have an EVF, it takes the DMW-LVF1 clip-on, so if you want it you have the option. The E-PL2 has a detachable available, as does the E-PL1, another heavily discounted end of cycle model. Of the cameras mentioned at the link, the GF3 and the NEX3 are the only ones that have no provision for an EVF.

Again, the GX1 has an optional EVF, the LVF2.
True most of these have optional EVF, however I doubt the EVF sells in anywhere near the numbers the camera does. If it did you'd see higher numbers on the ones with built in EVF since they are the better value.
I've rarely seen an EVF attached to a mirrorless anywhere (so since the dawn of mirrorless that includes Rome, Paris, London, Barcelona, and a good portion of southern Ontario where i was out actively shooting in many cases in areas where there were lots of shooters with Mirrorless cams (at the Dali Museum in Figueres last fall I'd say 30-35% were DSLR shooter, 10% mirrorless and most of the rest were P&S variants from small to superzoom - and i'd put camera phone at almost the same numbers as P&S not counting it as a camera per se)
not one of the Mirrorless i saw was add on EVF (there were some of the Pana with built in. Most were the entry Oly and a few nex mostly nex 3
I saw 1 RF in that crowd and One X100 - bear in mind this is a very bust spot where almost all visitors are tourists and are likely to be carrying a camera)
The EVF add on is completely in answer to more advance shooters when there was no unit with EVF built in. The Advance mirrorless crow will now be served more by the Fuji, the OMD and the Nex 7 for now (until Pricoh launches the FF K mount mirrorless )

02-03-2012, 08:55 AM   #1884
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I offer for Pentax K-01 a new nickname - Ka Zero One or Kaiser One.
Kaiser One - Emperor of mirrorless.
02-03-2012, 08:56 AM   #1885
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QuoteOriginally posted by kindakaa Quote
I offer for Pentax K-01 a new nickname - Ka Zero One or Kaiser One.
Kaiser One - Emperor of mirrorless.
It's already named Kaiser One in Russian Penta-club.
02-03-2012, 08:59 AM   #1886
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
It's already named Kaiser One in Russian Penta-club.
yes, it's offered there
надо чтобы везде так называли :-)
02-03-2012, 09:07 AM   #1887
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
True most of these have optional EVF, however I doubt the EVF sells in anywhere near the numbers the camera does. If it did you'd see higher numbers on the ones with built in EVF since they are the better value.
I've rarely seen an EVF attached to a mirrorless anywhere (so since the dawn of mirrorless that includes Rome, Paris, London, Barcelona, and a good portion of southern Ontario where i was out actively shooting in many cases in areas where there were lots of shooters with Mirrorless cams (at the Dali Museum in Figueres last fall I'd say 30-35% were DSLR shooter, 10% mirrorless and most of the rest were P&S variants from small to superzoom - and i'd put camera phone at almost the same numbers as P&S not counting it as a camera per se)
not one of the Mirrorless i saw was add on EVF (there were some of the Pana with built in. Most were the entry Oly and a few nex mostly nex 3
I saw 1 RF in that crowd and One X100 - bear in mind this is a very bust spot where almost all visitors are tourists and are likely to be carrying a camera)
The EVF add on is completely in answer to more advance shooters when there was no unit with EVF built in. The Advance mirrorless crow will now be served more by the Fuji, the OMD and the Nex 7 for now (until Pricoh launches the FF K mount mirrorless )
True, but I don't think that data is conclusive. For people that disdain composing on the back LCD the clip on would spend a decent amount of time on the camera, and be visible in day to day use - but a lot of those users have either stuck with DSLRs, or waited for the third gen MILCs with built-ins. But if you don't mind arm's length composition, but understand the limits of it, you may well buy the small mirror-less and the EVF, but the EVF may not spend tons of time on the camera except in those situations where you need it. Casual shooting, you configure the camera as light and small as possible. Or you may have gone to the more advanced model because you wanted the option available if you needed it later. So regardless of the ownership/use of them, I think availability factors into the purchasing decision, as this discussion bears out.

And from a camera maker's point of view I really don't understand it. A clip on EVF is another proprietary piece of gear that ties you to the system, at the cost of a port and an HDMI output (I'm sure it's slightly more involved than that but if you want play in the majors it has to be within your capability). If you only release one model, it should have been mid or upper range spec'd, and some form of EVF is pretty much a requirement for mid-range MILCs.
02-03-2012, 09:23 AM   #1888
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
Well, obviously it seems to be a tough time in general for japanese manufacturers. Imagine such a headline fromPentax, the doom and gloom section would go wild here.
Panasonic headed for record $10 billion annual loss | Reuters

It may be even wiser for a manufacturer to bring out a product, where he can share most of the develeopment costs with other products, or even use already developed parts. There are some compromises? Ok, but if it helps to broaden the portfolio and stay profitable, it might be just wise.
It's the TVs that are sinking electronics manufacturers.

And did you see that the Canon exec resigned over a weak forecast:

Canon President Steps Down; Profit Forecast Misses Estimates - Businessweek

It's not rosy in camera land either. And Canon cannot blame their mirrorless sales.
02-03-2012, 10:32 AM   #1889
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did the people crying for evf's and articulated lcd screens ever stop to think that maybe...just maybe... Ricoh is about to release a new grx with kmount module?
maybe k-01 had a sister model on the drawing boards that is being held back by Ricoh?
possible in a year or two we'll see a k-02 weathersealed and evf model?
02-03-2012, 11:08 AM   #1890
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Against the reasoning of most photographers, the viewfinderless Panasonic GX1 is a hit while the cheaper viewfindered and tilt-screened Panasonic G3 is a yawn.

Human beings are fickle, irrational creatures. All the logical arguments on the Internets isn't going to change that
GX1: 116 x 68 x 39 mm = 307632 mm^3
G3: 115 x 84 x 47 mm = 454020 mm^3
K-01: 122 x 79 x 58 mm = 559004 mm^3
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