New K-01 mirrorless camera coming

ogl · 01-22-2012, 06:19 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

But you're still the expert....

But I've tried it...

Absolutely useless things for me.

Fogel70 · 01-22-2012, 06:38 AM

Originally posted by DaveBlack

My understanding on the very new Samsung transparent old is that the light loss is about 50% but expect it to come down to 30% in the near future. How much is the light loss of the matte screen that the transparent old would replace.

I'm not sure it's possible to remove the matte screen without making OVF completely useless.

DaveBlack · 01-22-2012, 07:23 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

I'm not sure it's possible to remove the matte screen without making OVF completely useless.

The matte screen is the transparent oled.

gazonk · 01-22-2012, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by DaveBlack

+1. I agree a camera should not be a fashion statement but a functional tool.

+1 too, but let's face it, mirrorless cameras are fashion statements these days. If Pentax can make a foray into that market with such a camera, why not? - As long as they still continue to deliver highly functional DSLRs, a native K-mount "fashion statement" camera will just help raise the popularity of the K-mount.

drougge · 01-22-2012, 07:26 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

Hybrif VF work by projecting a secondary image into one of the faces of the prism.

I meant it would be a more cost effective way to make the EVF bigger than the OVF. But maybe only the "last" face of the prism needs to be bigger to accomodate the already existing method? Well, not quite I suppose. But if I learned anything from my 645 it's that prisms can be shaped in ways that make them smaller than you'd expect, so maybe there's a way.

pinholecam · 01-22-2012, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

You're assuming a owner of a K5 never used the LV???

Shooting using the liveview is slower then shooting using the OVF.

Its your difficulty to understand the problem of LV implementation on a dslr like K5, that leads me to think so.
You mean you have never noticed that the mirror goes down first before photo is taken in LV?
On a mirrorless, shutter release is faster than dslr LV implementation on k5, since there is no mirrordown lag.

In fact I am surprised you found that its slow on a current generation mirrorless.
What do you mean by slower anyway?
Fps? Slow down due to Buffer size? Lag between evf and shutter release?

Fogel70 · 01-22-2012, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by DaveBlack

The matte screen is the transparent oled.

I don't see much difference in using a separate matte screen or have the matte screen surface integrated in the OLED screen.

gazonk · 01-22-2012, 08:04 AM

Originally posted by gazonk

By the mid nineties, they had moved all production to their overseas factories, e.g. in Ireland.

I was wrong here - according to this highly recommendable article (if you want to understand why American computer companies choose to outsource production to China) in the New York Times, they still had at least one factory in the US until 2004.

audiobomber · 01-22-2012, 08:06 AM

Maybe the off-topic Apple discussion should continue elsewhere.

Docrwm · 01-22-2012, 08:17 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

Guys, this is a different fight.

Apple was brought into the discussion to emphasize the different products. We don't want Pentax products to turn into Apple products: Pretty but less functional, and performing a lot less then the competition.

Pentax used to be 100% about functionality and ergonomics, bringing in such a 'designer' is making us worry. That a products is prettier, with the loss of functionality doesn't make it better. Our hands cannot shapeshift, there's only a few designs that will work for humans. And Pentax used to NAIL that SPOT-ON.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. The designs is the LEAST of Pentax worries. They should concentrate on what they are lacking. Not on improving or changing what they already win at. Nobody has ever complained about their ergonomics or design. They did however about their small lens lineup, Lack of FF, inconsistent AF, etc... etc...

Well said. I handled several Nikon and Canon dSLRs yesterday while waiting for my wife. Wow, did they feel cheap and plasticy in my hands (No, I did not handle the D3) and were nowhere near as solid and easy to handle as either of my Pentax dSLRs. Pentax cameras have always struck people as ergonomically spot-on, even those who already own cameras from the competition. Changing that could potentially loose one of the areas where Pentax has always excelled.

DaveBlack · 01-22-2012, 08:25 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

I don't see much difference in using a separate matte screen or have the matte screen surface integrated in the OLED screen.

Using transparent old and matte screen might have a little more light loss than a matte screen surface integrated in the transparent old screen. A little more thickness might mean the focus between the two screens will be different. Integrating the two screens will make it simpler. Otherwise not much difference.

drougge · 01-22-2012, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by pinholecam

Its your difficulty to understand the problem of LV implementation on a dslr like K5, that leads me to think so.
You mean you have never noticed that the mirror goes down first before photo is taken in LV?
On a mirrorless, shutter release is faster than dslr LV implementation on k5, since there is no mirrordown lag.

I used to think the K-5 lowered the mirror when taking a shot in live view (the K20 and K-x do), but it doesn't. I've checked without a lens, it's just the shutter. That would be dependant on the sensor, not if you have a mirror or not.

gazonk · 01-22-2012, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by audiobomber

Maybe the off-topic Apple discussion should continue elsewhere.

Sorry about that, but since the question of design and function is relevant to the discussion here (the whole mirrorless game has become a retro styling competition lately, with the shameless Leica design of the X Pro 1 and Olympus now recycling the OM design), it's just inevitable that Apple gets mentioned. Apple is also highly relevant to this discussion because they are having a massive impact on which cameras are being used and how. In fact the iPhone and other smartphones are pretty much the reason that camera companies are investing so much in larger-sensor cameras and hybrid systems.

And given this relevance, the Apple-haters just have to be corrected when they derail the discussion with their ignorant opinions.

ogl · 01-22-2012, 08:33 AM

design is selling well

but design is main, but not the most important thing in camera...

cygnet · 01-22-2012, 08:35 AM - **1 Like**

I could give a sh@t about the size, as long as it's within normal Pentax dslr sizes. I don't care what kind of view finder it has, as long as it has one, so I can see something in bright sunlight. I do care about the damn noise of a dslr, which in 36 pages no one has mentioned. Mirrorless is the future, slapping mechanical mirrors is on the way out with the dinosaurs. I can't tell you how many times an animal has been alerted to my presence by mirror noise, to the point that I still use my Mamiya 6 rangefinder more than my Pentax dslr. I also care a lot about the dozen or so Pentax prime lenses that I own, and to be able to use them on a mirrorless camera will be great. And all black is not a fashion, it's a necessity for the tool to not reflect any light and bring notice to the camera. I used to put black tape on all the silver parts of my old k1000's and ME supers, so as to not draw attention to the camera from the subject being photographed. And on my current Pentax dslr's I have painted in the white "Pentax" at the top of the prism to black. I also wear all black or camouflage when out photographing, and I wouldn't call camo fashion.
In all truth I have looked at many of the rangefinder hybrid type digital cameras out there from time to time, and have thought about selling all my Pentax and Mamiya equipment and getting the Leica before. And if that Fuji X100 had interchangeable lenses I'd probably already own it.
In summary, my main requirements for a new digital camera would be:
I have to have a big enough sensor for decent depth of field control.
A viewfinder for bright conditions.
QUIET, QUIET, QUIET.
Many great prime lenses available. (already have Pentax issue)
So I'm very much looking forward to seeing this camera, even if I have to put black tape all over it.

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01-22-2012, 06:19 AM	#526
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by gazonk But you're still the expert.... But I've tried it... Absolutely useless things for me.

01-22-2012, 06:38 AM	#527
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by DaveBlack My understanding on the very new Samsung transparent old is that the light loss is about 50% but expect it to come down to 30% in the near future. How much is the light loss of the matte screen that the transparent old would replace. I'm not sure it's possible to remove the matte screen without making OVF completely useless.

01-22-2012, 07:23 AM	#528
DaveBlack Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 441	Originally posted by Fogel70 I'm not sure it's possible to remove the matte screen without making OVF completely useless. The matte screen is the transparent oled.

01-22-2012, 07:26 AM	#529
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by DaveBlack +1. I agree a camera should not be a fashion statement but a functional tool. +1 too, but let's face it, mirrorless cameras are fashion statements these days. If Pentax can make a foray into that market with such a camera, why not? - As long as they still continue to deliver highly functional DSLRs, a native K-mount "fashion statement" camera will just help raise the popularity of the K-mount.

01-22-2012, 07:26 AM	#530
drougge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Malmö Photos: Gallery Posts: 787	Originally posted by falconeye Hybrif VF work by projecting a secondary image into one of the faces of the prism. I meant it would be a more cost effective way to make the EVF bigger than the OVF. But maybe only the "last" face of the prism needs to be bigger to accomodate the already existing method? Well, not quite I suppose. But if I learned anything from my 645 it's that prisms can be shaped in ways that make them smaller than you'd expect, so maybe there's a way.

01-22-2012, 07:41 AM	#531
pinholecam Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: North Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,706	Originally posted by Clavius You're assuming a owner of a K5 never used the LV??? Shooting using the liveview is slower then shooting using the OVF. Its your difficulty to understand the problem of LV implementation on a dslr like K5, that leads me to think so. You mean you have never noticed that the mirror goes down first before photo is taken in LV? On a mirrorless, shutter release is faster than dslr LV implementation on k5, since there is no mirrordown lag. In fact I am surprised you found that its slow on a current generation mirrorless. What do you mean by slower anyway? Fps? Slow down due to Buffer size? Lag between evf and shutter release?

01-22-2012, 07:45 AM	#532
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by DaveBlack The matte screen is the transparent oled. I don't see much difference in using a separate matte screen or have the matte screen surface integrated in the OLED screen.

01-22-2012, 08:04 AM	#533
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by gazonk By the mid nineties, they had moved all production to their overseas factories, e.g. in Ireland. I was wrong here - according to this highly recommendable article (if you want to understand why American computer companies choose to outsource production to China) in the New York Times, they still had at least one factory in the US until 2004.

01-22-2012, 08:06 AM	#534
audiobomber Veteran Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Sudbury, Ontario Photos: Albums Posts: 6,806	Maybe the off-topic Apple discussion should continue elsewhere.

01-22-2012, 08:17 AM	#535
Docrwm Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Somewhere in the Southern US Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,285	Originally posted by Clavius Guys, this is a different fight. Apple was brought into the discussion to emphasize the different products. We don't want Pentax products to turn into Apple products: Pretty but less functional, and performing a lot less then the competition. Pentax used to be 100% about functionality and ergonomics, bringing in such a 'designer' is making us worry. That a products is prettier, with the loss of functionality doesn't make it better. Our hands cannot shapeshift, there's only a few designs that will work for humans. And Pentax used to NAIL that SPOT-ON. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. The designs is the LEAST of Pentax worries. They should concentrate on what they are lacking. Not on improving or changing what they already win at. Nobody has ever complained about their ergonomics or design. They did however about their small lens lineup, Lack of FF, inconsistent AF, etc... etc... Well said. I handled several Nikon and Canon dSLRs yesterday while waiting for my wife. Wow, did they feel cheap and plasticy in my hands (No, I did not handle the D3) and were nowhere near as solid and easy to handle as either of my Pentax dSLRs. Pentax cameras have always struck people as ergonomically spot-on, even those who already own cameras from the competition. Changing that could potentially loose one of the areas where Pentax has always excelled.

01-22-2012, 08:25 AM	#536
DaveBlack Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 441	Originally posted by Fogel70 I don't see much difference in using a separate matte screen or have the matte screen surface integrated in the OLED screen. Using transparent old and matte screen might have a little more light loss than a matte screen surface integrated in the transparent old screen. A little more thickness might mean the focus between the two screens will be different. Integrating the two screens will make it simpler. Otherwise not much difference.

01-22-2012, 08:27 AM	#537
drougge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Malmö Photos: Gallery Posts: 787	Originally posted by pinholecam Its your difficulty to understand the problem of LV implementation on a dslr like K5, that leads me to think so. You mean you have never noticed that the mirror goes down first before photo is taken in LV? On a mirrorless, shutter release is faster than dslr LV implementation on k5, since there is no mirrordown lag. I used to think the K-5 lowered the mirror when taking a shot in live view (the K20 and K-x do), but it doesn't. I've checked without a lens, it's just the shutter. That would be dependant on the sensor, not if you have a mirror or not.

01-22-2012, 08:29 AM	#538
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by audiobomber Maybe the off-topic Apple discussion should continue elsewhere. Sorry about that, but since the question of design and function is relevant to the discussion here (the whole mirrorless game has become a retro styling competition lately, with the shameless Leica design of the X Pro 1 and Olympus now recycling the OM design), it's just inevitable that Apple gets mentioned. Apple is also highly relevant to this discussion because they are having a massive impact on which cameras are being used and how. In fact the iPhone and other smartphones are pretty much the reason that camera companies are investing so much in larger-sensor cameras and hybrid systems. And given this relevance, the Apple-haters just have to be corrected when they derail the discussion with their ignorant opinions.

01-22-2012, 08:33 AM	#539
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	design is selling well but design is main, but not the most important thing in camera...

01-22-2012, 08:35 AM - 1 Like	#540
cygnet Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Hill Country Texas Photos: Gallery Posts: 104	I could give a sh@t about the size, as long as it's within normal Pentax dslr sizes. I don't care what kind of view finder it has, as long as it has one, so I can see something in bright sunlight. I do care about the damn noise of a dslr, which in 36 pages no one has mentioned. Mirrorless is the future, slapping mechanical mirrors is on the way out with the dinosaurs. I can't tell you how many times an animal has been alerted to my presence by mirror noise, to the point that I still use my Mamiya 6 rangefinder more than my Pentax dslr. I also care a lot about the dozen or so Pentax prime lenses that I own, and to be able to use them on a mirrorless camera will be great. And all black is not a fashion, it's a necessity for the tool to not reflect any light and bring notice to the camera. I used to put black tape on all the silver parts of my old k1000's and ME supers, so as to not draw attention to the camera from the subject being photographed. And on my current Pentax dslr's I have painted in the white "Pentax" at the top of the prism to black. I also wear all black or camouflage when out photographing, and I wouldn't call camo fashion. In all truth I have looked at many of the rangefinder hybrid type digital cameras out there from time to time, and have thought about selling all my Pentax and Mamiya equipment and getting the Leica before. And if that Fuji X100 had interchangeable lenses I'd probably already own it. In summary, my main requirements for a new digital camera would be: I have to have a big enough sensor for decent depth of field control. A viewfinder for bright conditions. QUIET, QUIET, QUIET. Many great prime lenses available. (already have Pentax issue) So I'm very much looking forward to seeing this camera, even if I have to put black tape all over it.