[Mister Horrible]

Some of this chatter reminds me of the K-5 rumors. Lots of moaning and complaining, and was this the last gasp of a crumbling brand? Then, of course, it turned out that the actual camera wasn't half bad at all ...

[devorama]

A leaf shutter that fast would likely create some serious vignetting.

The Fuji X100 has a leaf shutter and it can shoot 1/4000 sec. But for wider apertures, it is slower. 1/2000 sec at F/4 and 1/1000 sec at F/2. But it can flash sync at 1/2000 sec! Pretty neat!

[RonHendriks1966]

What is Q using, since I took a flash picture with it at 1/800th of a second. So that is very different from our K-5.

[Verglace]

I'm not confident in my knowledge of the innerworkings of cameras and lenses, but from what I understand the shutter is part of the camera itself and not of the lens, so they shouldn't need to create a new line of lenses because they changed the shutter?

My thoughts on the XS designation is that its either cheaper equivalent of a limited (if this camera is to replace the k-r then its likely) or its a WR limited (if this camera is WR/rugged and upscale - ie to replace the k-5 as the flagship).

Also I think Pentax has created a problem for themselves. Right now they have 3 mounts to support, the 645, Q and K. If they make a new short distance mirror-less then they have to create yet another mount since the Q is designed for small sensors. I don't believe pentax has enough resources to support 4 mounts, they will be spreading themselves too thin.

[asw66]

Also I think Pentax has created a problem for themselves. Right now they have 3 mounts to support, the 645, Q and K. If they make a new short distance mirror-less then they have to create yet another mount since the Q is designed for small sensors. I don't believe pentax has enough resources to support 4 mounts, they will be spreading themselves too thin.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but this rumour has it that the upcoming APS-C mirrorless will use K-mount, so it's just three mounts to support. Having said that, some lenses might work better on mirrorless than on traditional DSLRs, and vice versa. But these are just different optimisations.

[drugal]

what I understand the shutter is part of the camera itself

Sometimes they put a shutter in the lens, my photography book calls it a leaf shutter. The Q has such lenses as I recall.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge can say why one is used over the other.

[Anvh]

It is considerably smaller, it's even smaller than a K-x.

I hope it is what you say, a K-5 in MILC format, but I am expecting to see a single dial, no WR and basic controls. IOW, a K-r in MILC form, with K-5 sensor and rear LCD. Later I expect a K-r body, with K-5 sensor and LCD.

Well they did almost the same thing with the Km and K200D, under the hood they are basically a downgraded K10D. I mean nothing bad with it but it's a smart move from pentax.

I assume he means articulating display, where the screen can fold out and swivel on one axis in the same manner as a camcorder for self portraits, framing photos holding camera above head in a crowd, etc.

Yeah thought so, rotating doesn't sound that useful. ^^;

Yeah, basically a K-5... without pretty much everything that goes inside it. Mirror, pentaprism, PDS, probably even the curtain shutter.
Nikon uses the same Sony sensor of the K-5. Why buy a K-5 then? Does it make different photos?

See what I just did here?

Well yeah the handling would be different but it's still a camera and they probably will share most of the electronics if the rumour is true so why not compare it?


Nobody said anything about buying one... and the Nikon D7000 is compared many times with the K5.

[Anvh]

What is Q using, since I took a flash picture with it at 1/800th of a second. So that is very different from our K-5.

Leaf shutter if it's in the lens or else an electronic shutter.

[eddie1960]

It's missing some features of the K5 too.

- It only has 1/4000 shutter speed.
- Contrast AF only. (ssslllooowww)

and at launch it will probably be 40% of the launch K5 price and 2/3 of the current price. you don't get everything for free. it's what looks to be a good entry level model taking advantage of an emerging market while playing on the strengths of an existing one. not a dumb idea, maybe not for someone who already has bought a k5 (but as an owner of 3 Pentax DSLR and seveal film as well it holds an appeal just not as my primary, but as my backup, my video, and quite likely (until i get the k5 successor) my high iso camera - and maybe my travel cam as well... at a minimum my secondary for travel my wife can carry

[eddie1960]

Sometimes they put a shutter in the lens, my photography book calls it a leaf shutter. The Q has such lenses as I recall.

Hopefully someone with more knowledge can say why one is used over the other.

Leaf shutters are one of the oldest designs, dating way back in the film era. the big plus is you can sync flash at any speed (usually) up to the highest speed on the shutter. they don't have the curtain lag a standard DSLR shutter has. the drawback is lenses will be much more expensive as every time you buy a lens you also buy a shutter (one of the reasom most MF lenses were so expensive back in the film days). Many Leaf shutter systems are more accurately Diaphram shutters with multiple leaves forming a circular diaphram

compared to electromic foacal plane shutters maximum speed is quite slow (my Bronica 645 for instance maxs at 1/500)

[Aristophanes]

Leaf shutter if it's in the lens or else an electronic shutter.

Could be a combo, like the Nikon D70.

[Aristophanes]

and at launch it will probably be 40% of the launch Kr price and 2/3 of the current price. you don't get everything for free. it's what looks to be a good entry level model taking advantage of an emerging market while playing on the strengths of an existing one. not a dumb idea, maybe not for someone who already has bought a k5 (but as an owner of 3 Pentax DSLR and seveal film as well it holds an appeal just not as my primary, but as my backup, my video, and quite likely (until i get the k5 successor) my high iso camera - and maybe my travel cam as well... at a minimum my secondary for travel my wife can carry

At launch it will be priced above the K-r.

You will pay a premium for mirrorless, the new EVF, backwards compatibility, and new primes.

[falconeye]

the next step
being an electronic shake reduction (as opposed to mechanical).

wrt electronic SR ...
This is theoretically feasible but in order to rival the quality of a mechanical SR (be it sensor shift or lens shift) a key innovation is required:

- sensor-embedded pixel registers.

This key innovation comes after sensor-embedded A/D converters like the K-5 has. But it still is rather expensive; e.g., the K-5 would require a hefty 32 MB (64 MB to really allow for new applications) on the sensor chip. E.g., current L1 processor caches tend to be smaller. No CMOS sensor features this or is announced to do so any time soon.

Only then does it become possible to bin different pixels into one virtual pixel during exposure, a method required as long as an entire sensor can't be read out in submilliseconds (which it can't because it would require Terabit/s bandwidth).

Therefore, you're right theoretically. But it will be long before this idea becomes relevant.

btw, SW SR in current P&S etc. use slow readout and software to achieve some effect for very long exposures. But this doesn't compare to mechanical SR.

One way of making the camera thinner would be to keep the mirror (but locked down) and put the SR and sensor assembly up where the penta prism is now. That would easily shave 10mm wouldn't it?

It saves more, esp. because half the mirror-box's volume can then be populated with electronics. It would actually be better to flip the mirror and have the sensor moved to the bottom and use the upper empty space to house the EVF and other stuff like flash and electronics. AFAIK, designs like this were discussed.

However, it is difficult to find a mirror which doesn't negatively impact the image. Silver-coated glass or similiar may do it and must be extremely planar. I guess it is doable but maybe not the cheapest way. Pentamirror VFs are darger than pentaprism VFs for a reason ...

But we should keep this kind of design in mind for future mirrorless K mount cameras.

What is the point of using K-mount if the new "K" lenses won't work on old SLR bodies and old K-lenses won't be optimal on the new mirrorless bodies?

I think it is perfectly reasonable to do this. The bulk of lenses would be cross compatible but a few special ones would exploit the extra possibilities (esp. UWA and travel lenses).

Anyway, the same kind of argument applied to the first DA lenses when released ...

They explained it as thus:
...
Lighter elements means less inertia, which means they can change position more quickly.

I am aware of this issue. CDAF may require more acceleration to aquire focus in the same time. But there are a number of arguments to consider here:
- Pentax PDAF does some extra focus steps too, very often at least.
- A screw drive motor can be made stronger if in the body.
- But foremost, current CDAF algorithms are poor: they are bad in predicting the distance to real focus, they overshoot to easily and they stop the lens in order to take a new measurement. A sensor which delivers an HD videosignal frame in 17ms can be read out while the lens travels (it takes about 10x the time to travel to focus). A good algorithm would slow down the lens softly until it aquires exact focus right then it eventually stops.

I've written an CDAF algorithm myself and I am not impressed by how current CDAF algorithms behave.

A quick mockup of a thinner EVIL, still with SR and fully compatible K-mount

cf. above.

[eddie1960]

Also I think Pentax has created a problem for themselves. Right now they have 3 mounts to support, the 645, Q and K. If they make a new short distance mirror-less then they have to create yet another mount since the Q is designed for small sensors. I don't believe pentax has enough resources to support 4 mounts, they will be spreading themselves too thin.

Ok lets say it again. When Pentax was bought by hoya they were struggling but had better market share than now (almost double) Hoya bought the company for the medical side with no interest in the camera so the shut down big chunks and raised prices to raise profitability and make the division attractive for sale. Initially this really hurt share, but it has been on the rebound (in no small part due to all the funny coloured cameras BTW)
Ricoh looking for a way to diversify their business as their big core business is an industry that is headed for decline, and as a manufacturer of cameras for a long time including Pentax k mount and m42 cameras saw value as a means of growing their global presence without the expense of starting a DSLR line from scratch bought the company. Unlike Hoya Ricoh wants to invest in and grow this business (otherwise they may as well have had a cash bonfire) Ricoh as a company is about 5 times hoyas size and 4 times nikons size and Canons biggest competitor. What makes you think Pentax no longer can afford to compete.
All this BS about Poor Pentax died last October. Pentax is not Poor they are in need of investment. and I think ricoh realised that and will pursue things aggressively. the earliest we can expect to see signifigant Ricoh impact is photokina in September (11 months post purchase) but i think there has liely been ricoh input into the K01 despite it's core being a hoya design and thaqt is why we waied so long to see it (remember this has been rumoured to have come out last fall when the q was coming to launch. Right around the time ricoh's intent to purchase was announced.

c'mon people are you really that pessimistic. If yoyu are why are you still using Pentax why haven't you moved on to m43 or canikon who apparently can do know wrong (until you go to one of their forums of course )

[eddie1960]

At launch it will be priced above the K-r.

You will pay a premium for mirrorless, the new EVF, backwards compatibility, and new primes.

I meant K5 not Kr sorry typo, you're possibly right though on how much it will cost (a mistake if you are referring to KR launch price versus current price) - corrected my OP