New K-01 mirrorless camera coming

RonHendriks1966 · 01-22-2012, 04:38 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

I funny thing I noticed during watching the Marc Newson videos was the similiarity between his concept car for Ford and the (popular but not liked) Trabant car made by communist East Germany (VEB Sachsenwerk). Enjoy ...

So funny it even looks like the first DAF, the only Dutch carbrand produced in a large series (800.000) but only in variomatic.

It's from 1958!

RonHendriks1966 · 01-22-2012, 04:39 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

I funny thing I noticed during watching the Marc Newson videos was the similiarity between his concept car for Ford and the (popular but not liked) Trabant car made by communist East Germany (VEB Sachsenwerk). Enjoy ...

So funny it even looks like the first DAF, the only Dutch carbrand produced in a large series (800.000) but only in variomatic.

It's from 1958!

Fogel70 · 01-22-2012, 04:40 AM

Originally posted by drougge

Not at all. The experience of looking through the finder on my K-5 is very much one of looking at a small image in a large field of black. No reason the EVF couldn't expand over that field.

And why would it need to be darker? Either the screen is transparent enough it doesn't matter or it can slide out of the way when not in use. Either way, not darker.

In a hybrid VF the distance to matte screen and EVF need to be the same so most likely it has be a transparent mirror in the prism for this (just like in Fuji hybrid VF).

As the EVF has to mirrored in on the OVF it is not possible to use larger EVF than OVF, and because of the transparent mirror you will loose light in OVF. If wanting different size on OVF and EVF you probably have to use interchangeable VF.

Clavius · 01-22-2012, 04:46 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

In a hybrid VF the distance to matte screen and EVF need to be the same so most likely it has be a transparent mirror in the prism for this (just like in Fuji hybrid VF).

As the EVF has to mirrored in on the OVF it is not possible to use larger EVF than OVF, and because of the transparent mirror you will loose light in OVF. If wanting different size on OVF and EVF you probably have to use interchangeable VF.

We're getting things mixed up, I think.

Wouldn't it be better to be able to choose between EVF and OVF, not mix them?
OVF--> mirror in place. Flick of a switch: Mirror claps up and the viewfinder switches to EVF. Exactly like with liveview.

ogl · 01-22-2012, 04:52 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

Guys, this is a different fight.

Apple was brought into the discussion to emphasize the different products. We don't want Pentax products to turn into Apple products: Pretty but less functional, and performing a lot less then the competition.

Pentax used to be 100% about functionality and ergonomics, bringing in such a 'designer' is making us worry. That a products is prettier, with the loss of functionality doesn't make it better. Our hands cannot shapeshift, there's only a few designs that will work for humans. And Pentax used to NAIL that SPOT-ON.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. The designs is the LEAST of Pentax worries. They should concentrate on what they are lacking. Not on improving or changing what they already win at. Nobody has ever complained about their ergonomics or design. They did however about their small lens lineup, Lack of FF, inconsistent AF, etc... etc...

Pentax design was always good for me. I like *ist DS, K200D, K-5. You are right. Need to improve another things..

Fogel70 · 01-22-2012, 05:04 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

We're getting things mixed up, I think.

Wouldn't it be better to be able to choose between EVF and OVF, not mix them?
OVF--> mirror in place. Flick of a switch: Mirror claps up and the viewfinder switches to EVF. Exactly like with liveview.

But how do you get the OVF to be replaced with EVF? Somehow the prism needs to move out of the way and be replaced by EVF, or at least the matte screen has to be replaced by EVF.

This all seems like a very complex mechanism that probably risk making OVF perform worse. Maybe the prism has to be replaced by mirrors.

gazonk · 01-22-2012, 05:13 AM

Originally posted by ogl

As for me - I never used Apple products and I have no any need to use it.

But you're still the expert....

drougge · 01-22-2012, 05:24 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

In a hybrid VF the distance to matte screen and EVF need to be the same so most likely it has be a transparent mirror in the prism for this (just like in Fuji hybrid VF).

As the EVF has to mirrored in on the OVF it is not possible to use larger EVF than OVF, and because of the transparent mirror you will loose light in OVF. If wanting different size on OVF and EVF you probably have to use interchangeable VF.

You have to have a bigger prism than the OVF needs, yes, but other than that, no problem. I don't believe the small distance difference you get by placing the EVF just above the matte screen is a problem. And if it is, refocusing the optics in the viewfinder isn't that hard.

But it might be more cost effective to have the EVF before the prism, and refocus quite a lot.

falconeye · 01-22-2012, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor

Sony provides that already with their SLTs. I guess you probably don't consider them mirrorless

Yepp, I don't consider the SLT to be mirrorless (as it has one).

Now, there are two types of mirrorless: with and w/o an EVF. And two types of mirrored: with and w/o an OVF.

The disadvantages with the SLT (apart from not having an OVF) is that it doesn't allow for lenses with protruding rear elements. And that the AF module and EVF compete for space making the SLTs as large as an SLR.

Originally posted by JerryLime

Should I keep my DA Ltd. for coming K-mount MILC?
Will the new MILC support AF for DA lenses without built motor?

I think the rumor says yes. Because only one of the three kit prime lenses is said to be new.

DaveBlack · 01-22-2012, 05:35 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

But how do you get the OVF to be replaced with EVF? Somehow the prism needs to move out of the way and be replaced by EVF, or at least the matte screen has to be replaced by EVF.

This all seems like a very complex mechanism that probably risk making OVF perform worse. Maybe the prism has to be replaced by mirrors.

Use the new Samsung transparent old as the sceen. Or use the Pentax patent to project digital image onto the screen with projector led in the prism.

Dave

falconeye · 01-22-2012, 05:41 AM

Originally posted by drougge

But it might be more cost effective to have the EVF before the prism, and refocus quite a lot.

Hybrif VF work by projecting a secondary image into one of the faces of the prism.

You can look at my K-5 cut model photo (in my blog) to see how the focus point illumination red led matrix is projected onto the prism. It is an optical system with a lens.

A hybrif VF would replace the red led matrix by an EVF screen. Making the VF bulge bigger. You can compare a K-x and a K-r to see by how much the bulge had to grow to accomodate the AF matrix. The K-r is significantly larger than the K-x and I like the K-x better, actually.

If this screen shall cover a larger area than the AF point matrix, then a larger prism would be required, making the bulge on top of the camera even larger. Not exactly what to expect from a more compact camera

But certainly an option for a forthcoming high end camera, esp. as it would have to be full frame anyway

But a hybrif VF is a desirable thing. Not only would it display the LV image when the mirror is up. But it may overlay frame lines, live histogram, the previous image (for pano work etc.), better feedback from the AF (like direction and distance to focus for manual work) and much more. And with a system like the new Nikon 91k RGB exposure meter sensor (using another face of the prism -- aren't prism wonderful things?), it could overlay a live QVGA image with AF tracking info and other info ...

DaveBlack · 01-22-2012, 05:54 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

Guys, this is a different fight.

Apple was brought into the discussion to emphasize the different products. We don't want Pentax products to turn into Apple products: Pretty but less functional, and performing a lot less then the competition.

Pentax used to be 100% about functionality and ergonomics, bringing in such a 'designer' is making us worry. That a products is prettier, with the loss of functionality doesn't make it better. Our hands cannot shapeshift, there's only a few designs that will work for humans. And Pentax used to NAIL that SPOT-ON.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it. The designs is the LEAST of Pentax worries. They should concentrate on what they are lacking. Not on improving or changing what they already win at. Nobody has ever complained about their ergonomics or design. They did however about their small lens lineup, Lack of FF, inconsistent AF, etc... etc...

+1

The yellow leather really makes me worry. Still I am hopefully. More lenses would be great. With R&D money going into CD AF there might not be much improvemet in PD AF in the next true dslr.

Fogel70 · 01-22-2012, 05:58 AM

Originally posted by DaveBlack

Use the new Samsung transparent old as the sceen. Or use the Pentax patent to project digital image onto the screen with projector led in the prism.

Dave

If I understood correctly, a problem with a OLED is that it will block more light when turned off, so the display will have to be on all the time which will affect battery life. And when it is on you still can't get all light to pass through.

IMO one of the best features of OVF is that they do not need any power top be used.

DaveBlack · 01-22-2012, 06:01 AM

Originally posted by DeadJohn

As far as this rumored Pentax mirrorless, I hope Pentax still gives us an option for all-black cameras after hiring their designer du jour. I don't care if Pentax adds silver, white, etc. as long as they continue to sell an all-black version. My camera is a tool not a fashion accessory

+1. I agree a camera should not be a fashion statement but a functional tool.

DaveBlack · 01-22-2012, 06:05 AM

Originally posted by Fogel70

If I understood correctly, a problem with a OLED is that it will block more light when turned off, so the display will have to be on all the time which will affect battery life. And when it is on you still can't get all light to pass through.

IMO one of the best features of OVF is that they do not need any power top be used.

My understanding on the very new Samsung transparent old is that the light loss is about 50% but expect it to come down to 30% in the near future. How much is the light loss of the matte screen that the transparent old would replace.

01-22-2012, 05:24 AM	#518
drougge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Malmö Photos: Gallery Posts: 787	Originally posted by Fogel70 In a hybrid VF the distance to matte screen and EVF need to be the same so most likely it has be a transparent mirror in the prism for this (just like in Fuji hybrid VF). As the EVF has to mirrored in on the OVF it is not possible to use larger EVF than OVF, and because of the transparent mirror you will loose light in OVF. If wanting different size on OVF and EVF you probably have to use interchangeable VF. You have to have a bigger prism than the OVF needs, yes, but other than that, no problem. I don't believe the small distance difference you get by placing the EVF just above the matte screen is a problem. And if it is, refocusing the optics in the viewfinder isn't that hard. But it might be more cost effective to have the EVF before the prism, and refocus quite a lot. Last edited by drougge; 01-22-2012 at 05:25 AM. Reason: spelling

01-22-2012, 05:41 AM	#521
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by drougge But it might be more cost effective to have the EVF before the prism, and refocus quite a lot. Hybrif VF work by projecting a secondary image into one of the faces of the prism. You can look at my K-5 cut model photo (in my blog) to see how the focus point illumination red led matrix is projected onto the prism. It is an optical system with a lens. A hybrif VF would replace the red led matrix by an EVF screen. Making the VF bulge bigger. You can compare a K-x and a K-r to see by how much the bulge had to grow to accomodate the AF matrix. The K-r is significantly larger than the K-x and I like the K-x better, actually. If this screen shall cover a larger area than the AF point matrix, then a larger prism would be required, making the bulge on top of the camera even larger. Not exactly what to expect from a more compact camera But certainly an option for a forthcoming high end camera, esp. as it would have to be full frame anyway But a hybrif VF is a desirable thing. Not only would it display the LV image when the mirror is up. But it may overlay frame lines, live histogram, the previous image (for pano work etc.), better feedback from the AF (like direction and distance to focus for manual work) and much more. And with a system like the new Nikon 91k RGB exposure meter sensor (using another face of the prism -- aren't prism wonderful things?), it could overlay a live QVGA image with AF tracking info and other info ... Last edited by falconeye; 01-22-2012 at 05:52 AM.

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01-22-2012, 04:38 AM	#511
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by falconeye I funny thing I noticed during watching the Marc Newson videos was the similiarity between his concept car for Ford and the (popular but not liked) Trabant car made by communist East Germany (VEB Sachsenwerk). Enjoy ... So funny it even looks like the first DAF, the only Dutch carbrand produced in a large series (800.000) but only in variomatic. It's from 1958!

01-22-2012, 04:39 AM	#512
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by falconeye I funny thing I noticed during watching the Marc Newson videos was the similiarity between his concept car for Ford and the (popular but not liked) Trabant car made by communist East Germany (VEB Sachsenwerk). Enjoy ... So funny it even looks like the first DAF, the only Dutch carbrand produced in a large series (800.000) but only in variomatic. It's from 1958!

01-22-2012, 04:40 AM	#513
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by drougge Not at all. The experience of looking through the finder on my K-5 is very much one of looking at a small image in a large field of black. No reason the EVF couldn't expand over that field. And why would it need to be darker? Either the screen is transparent enough it doesn't matter or it can slide out of the way when not in use. Either way, not darker. In a hybrid VF the distance to matte screen and EVF need to be the same so most likely it has be a transparent mirror in the prism for this (just like in Fuji hybrid VF). As the EVF has to mirrored in on the OVF it is not possible to use larger EVF than OVF, and because of the transparent mirror you will loose light in OVF. If wanting different size on OVF and EVF you probably have to use interchangeable VF.

01-22-2012, 04:46 AM	#514
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by Fogel70 In a hybrid VF the distance to matte screen and EVF need to be the same so most likely it has be a transparent mirror in the prism for this (just like in Fuji hybrid VF). As the EVF has to mirrored in on the OVF it is not possible to use larger EVF than OVF, and because of the transparent mirror you will loose light in OVF. If wanting different size on OVF and EVF you probably have to use interchangeable VF. We're getting things mixed up, I think. Wouldn't it be better to be able to choose between EVF and OVF, not mix them? OVF--> mirror in place. Flick of a switch: Mirror claps up and the viewfinder switches to EVF. Exactly like with liveview.

01-22-2012, 04:52 AM	#515
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by Clavius Guys, this is a different fight. Apple was brought into the discussion to emphasize the different products. We don't want Pentax products to turn into Apple products: Pretty but less functional, and performing a lot less then the competition. Pentax used to be 100% about functionality and ergonomics, bringing in such a 'designer' is making us worry. That a products is prettier, with the loss of functionality doesn't make it better. Our hands cannot shapeshift, there's only a few designs that will work for humans. And Pentax used to NAIL that SPOT-ON. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. The designs is the LEAST of Pentax worries. They should concentrate on what they are lacking. Not on improving or changing what they already win at. Nobody has ever complained about their ergonomics or design. They did however about their small lens lineup, Lack of FF, inconsistent AF, etc... etc... Pentax design was always good for me. I like *ist DS, K200D, K-5. You are right. Need to improve another things..

01-22-2012, 05:04 AM	#516
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by Clavius We're getting things mixed up, I think. Wouldn't it be better to be able to choose between EVF and OVF, not mix them? OVF--> mirror in place. Flick of a switch: Mirror claps up and the viewfinder switches to EVF. Exactly like with liveview. But how do you get the OVF to be replaced with EVF? Somehow the prism needs to move out of the way and be replaced by EVF, or at least the matte screen has to be replaced by EVF. This all seems like a very complex mechanism that probably risk making OVF perform worse. Maybe the prism has to be replaced by mirrors.

01-22-2012, 05:13 AM	#517
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by ogl As for me - I never used Apple products and I have no any need to use it. But you're still the expert....

01-22-2012, 05:28 AM	#519
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by Laurentiu Cristofor Sony provides that already with their SLTs. I guess you probably don't consider them mirrorless Yepp, I don't consider the SLT to be mirrorless (as it has one). Now, there are two types of mirrorless: with and w/o an EVF. And two types of mirrored: with and w/o an OVF. The disadvantages with the SLT (apart from not having an OVF) is that it doesn't allow for lenses with protruding rear elements. And that the AF module and EVF compete for space making the SLTs as large as an SLR. Originally posted by JerryLime Should I keep my DA Ltd. for coming K-mount MILC? Will the new MILC support AF for DA lenses without built motor? I think the rumor says yes. Because only one of the three kit prime lenses is said to be new.

01-22-2012, 05:35 AM	#520
DaveBlack Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 441	Originally posted by Fogel70 But how do you get the OVF to be replaced with EVF? Somehow the prism needs to move out of the way and be replaced by EVF, or at least the matte screen has to be replaced by EVF. This all seems like a very complex mechanism that probably risk making OVF perform worse. Maybe the prism has to be replaced by mirrors. Use the new Samsung transparent old as the sceen. Or use the Pentax patent to project digital image onto the screen with projector led in the prism. Dave

01-22-2012, 05:54 AM	#522
DaveBlack Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 441	Originally posted by Clavius Guys, this is a different fight. Apple was brought into the discussion to emphasize the different products. We don't want Pentax products to turn into Apple products: Pretty but less functional, and performing a lot less then the competition. Pentax used to be 100% about functionality and ergonomics, bringing in such a 'designer' is making us worry. That a products is prettier, with the loss of functionality doesn't make it better. Our hands cannot shapeshift, there's only a few designs that will work for humans. And Pentax used to NAIL that SPOT-ON. If it isn't broken, don't fix it. The designs is the LEAST of Pentax worries. They should concentrate on what they are lacking. Not on improving or changing what they already win at. Nobody has ever complained about their ergonomics or design. They did however about their small lens lineup, Lack of FF, inconsistent AF, etc... etc... +1 The yellow leather really makes me worry. Still I am hopefully. More lenses would be great. With R&D money going into CD AF there might not be much improvemet in PD AF in the next true dslr.

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01-22-2012, 05:58 AM	#523
Fogel70 Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Photos: Albums Posts: 3,062	Originally posted by DaveBlack Use the new Samsung transparent old as the sceen. Or use the Pentax patent to project digital image onto the screen with projector led in the prism. Dave If I understood correctly, a problem with a OLED is that it will block more light when turned off, so the display will have to be on all the time which will affect battery life. And when it is on you still can't get all light to pass through. IMO one of the best features of OVF is that they do not need any power top be used.

01-22-2012, 06:01 AM	#524
DaveBlack Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 441	Originally posted by DeadJohn As far as this rumored Pentax mirrorless, I hope Pentax still gives us an option for all-black cameras after hiring their designer du jour. I don't care if Pentax adds silver, white, etc. as long as they continue to sell an all-black version. My camera is a tool not a fashion accessory +1. I agree a camera should not be a fashion statement but a functional tool.

01-22-2012, 06:05 AM	#525
DaveBlack Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Louisville, Kentucky Posts: 441	Originally posted by Fogel70 If I understood correctly, a problem with a OLED is that it will block more light when turned off, so the display will have to be on all the time which will affect battery life. And when it is on you still can't get all light to pass through. IMO one of the best features of OVF is that they do not need any power top be used. My understanding on the very new Samsung transparent old is that the light loss is about 50% but expect it to come down to 30% in the near future. How much is the light loss of the matte screen that the transparent old would replace.