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02-05-2012, 12:09 AM   #61
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Yeah, and all those silent lenses with some form of a ring motor cost what? I'm not really poking you personally but we all have such contradictory needs/wants/demands of Pentax that nothing they do is ever right.

If they canned the K-mount and all the screw-drive lenses altogether and built the perfect system, we'd absolutely howl.

02-05-2012, 12:37 AM   #62
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The way I see it I think the K-01 is a bold move into an untested market. I personally know of quite a few people who want to have the "big SLR-looking" camera but without all the tecnical mumbo-jumbo. Face it, photography in the last 10 years has exploded in popularity. Everyone wants to share their life with others and as expected there are going to be people out there that want to have photos that others are impressed with / jealous of. Many of these people are used to buying tech that is dumbed down but still looks the part, just look at the iPhone.

The biggest issue that Pentax faces is brand awareness and brand association. Watch any "popular" film or mainstream tv series and about 99% of the time the cameras used by characters are Canon or Nikon. Ricoh needs to get the K-01 into the mainstream media. Love it or hate it, if Brad Pitt was using that thing in his next hollywood film people would sit up and take notice. If you want to go toe to toe with Canikon you need to at least be in the ring with them and right now Pentax is barely in the building. (sorry, have been rewatching Rocky recently).

Relating back to the OP. Pentax does has one thing and that is a fan base that actually care about the brand and considering how close Pentax is to disappearing we are very much involved in any news that Ricoh can feed us. I think that part of those 600 odd views are people who have invested in Pentax and are desperately hoping that things are going to turn around soon. Canon and Nikon do not suffer from this problem so much.
... Just my 2 cents.
02-05-2012, 01:09 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Yeah, and all those silent lenses with some form of a ring motor cost what?
Kit lenses with silent AF don't cost more than Pentax screw-drive kit lenses. Pentax even use silent AF motors in all Q AF lenses
02-05-2012, 02:47 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Yeah, and all those silent lenses with some form of a ring motor cost what? I'm not really poking you personally but we all have such contradictory needs/wants/demands of Pentax that nothing they do is ever right.
As Fogel has said above, the Canon and Nikon kit 18-55 lenses are retailing for at or lower than the price of the Pentax 18-55.

The silent motors convey a level of smoothness and sophistication missing with the Pentax crude-sounding screw-driven kit lens. New buyers always seem to pick up on this. Only later as they learn more about ILC cameras do they realise that their Nikon 5100 won't autofocus older lenses.

I'm just suggesting Pentax cover both bases. It's a competitive advantage and Canikon have left it open.

02-05-2012, 05:51 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
I'm just suggesting Pentax cover both bases.
Silent kit zoom for the K-01 ...

Thinking about it, should be a silent power zoom too, shouldn't it?

Using a power zoom on the K-5 is fun, esp. as they maintain focus. Does anybody know if the K-01 supports power zooms? (the K-5 does, the K-x doesn't)
02-05-2012, 06:18 AM   #66
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Re: Power Zoom

If the kit zoom gets a refresh, I think that is a fantastic idea.
02-05-2012, 09:54 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Kit lenses with silent AF don't cost more than Pentax screw-drive kit lenses. Pentax even use silent AF motors in all Q AF lenses
QuoteOriginally posted by Unsinkable II Quote
As Fogel has said above, the Canon and Nikon kit 18-55 lenses are retailing for at or lower than the price of the Pentax 18-55.

The silent motors convey a level of smoothness and sophistication missing with the Pentax crude-sounding screw-driven kit lens. New buyers always seem to pick up on this. Only later as they learn more about ILC cameras do they realise that their Nikon 5100 won't autofocus older lenses.

I'm just suggesting Pentax cover both bases. It's a competitive advantage and Canikon have left it open.
<rant>

So you are telling me that Pentax can engineer from the ground up lenses that have silent ring motors in them - in every single lens - having not amortized the R&D and Plant and Equipment costs over many years of selling many thousands of more expensive lenses as CaNikon have - and offer that to us in a brand new $100 kit zoom lens that is intended to work with a boxy point and shoot camera that doesn't even have a viewfinder and is destined to fail before anyone has ever even seen one?

And design the electronics and algorithm to control the new CDAF 81 point focus system with a lens mounted focus motor. And also incur the expense of retaining the body motor, screw drive and gearing in the K-01 for those that demand it so the camera can be used with their precious FA Limiteds, without introducing cost-prohibitive complexity? And while they're at it, how about they un-cripple the KAF2 mount so we can properly meter our 50-year-old Takumars - I mean, c'mon, Pentax - backward compatibility should mean something!!

And keep the lenses characteristically small, sharp and contrasty in the Pentax tradition? And as a side benefit, allow the lenses to protrude into the (former) mirror box so they are really cool and flat? But keep them useable on the legacy Pentax bodies with mirror boxes we all already own.

This all to be magically created by a company that can't make HSM that works, and can't service it when it breaks? That has retired all its best lens engineers, can't do proper quality control, moved its manufacturing base to Southeast Asia (who wants an FA Limited or A50/1.2 manufactured in Vietnam)?

In a company whose total sale price to Ricoh was something like $100,000,000 5 months ago (pocket change to Ricoh, BTW)?

Oh, and keep the price at $849 for the zoom kit. (I'll buy it after the street price drops to $599)

Give Pentax Ricoh Imaging an effing break! Sophisticated my hind end. Hipsters will buy that Fuji thing for $2300. Or wear a Leica dangling from a neckstrap on the subway.

This is supposed to be a fun camera that does lots of things nearly as well as a dSLR. That's the gap to plug - K5 sensor in a $750 camera. Edge technology video in the same $750 camera. It is not intended to be a smooth, sophisticated dSLR in a compact body. Its a one-off, or maybe the start of a new line (emphasis on start) that appeals to a different generation.

Now I suppose someone will say if they really wanted to add something Pentax should add native 4G and an InstaGram button.

We're such gear snobs.

</rant>

Last edited by monochrome; 02-05-2012 at 10:26 AM.
02-05-2012, 10:12 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
So you are telling me that Pentax can engineer from the ground up lenses that have silent ring motors in them - in every single lens - having not amortized the R&D and Plant and Equipment costs over many years of selling many thousands of more expensive lenses as CaNikon have - and offer that to us in a brand new $100 kit zoom lens that is intended to work with a boxy point and shoot camera that doesn't even have a viewfinder and is destined to fail before anyone has ever even seen one?

And design the electronics and algorithm to control the new CDAF 81 point focus system with a lens mounted focus motor. And also incur the expense of retaining the body motor, screw drive and gearing in the K-01 for those that demand it so the camera can be used with their precious Takumars, without introducing cost-prohibitive complexity?
As I said, it is only a new compact kit lens with AF motor that is needed. It doesn't have to be ring motor, just a motor that is silent enough to work with video.

02-05-2012, 10:28 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
As I said, it is only a new compact kit lens with AF motor that is needed. It doesn't have to be ring motor, just a motor that is silent enough to work with video.
Pentax hasn't put silent motors in lenses. They have put motors in bodies. You're asking for something totally new for the company to create.

We all think we know so much and understand capital allocation and cost accounting and currency exchange rates and engineering challenges and Japanese corporate culture - -

Pentax was literally dead last September. Dead. Hoya had picked the bones clean. How could Pentax have engineered and patented a silent gearing mechanism or lens motor in 5 months? It doesn't come from nowhere. Its a miracle they did their own CDAF!

I don't disagree many things could be better, should be better and I want them to be better. They will be. We'll get some really neat things from Ricoh in the next two years. We won't believe they're real, at first - we've been disappointed so often.

But we're going to wake up one day in 2014 and wonder how we got there.

Until then we really need to take things as they are and look at the good - and stop picking at the scabs as Ricoh heals this company. We're killing the damned camera on our owned Forum before Pentax has even started the manufacturing lines!!

Last edited by monochrome; 02-05-2012 at 12:24 PM.
02-05-2012, 11:03 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Pentax hasn't put motors in lenses. They have put motors in bodies. You're asking for something totally new for the company to create.
It's not new, Pentax has used in-lens AF motors for years.

QuoteQuote:
We all think we know so much and understand capital allocation and cost accounting and currency exchange rates and engineering challenges and Japanese corporate culture - -

Pentax was literally dead last September. Dead. Hoya had picked the bones clean. How could Pentax have engineered and patented a silent gearing mechanism or lens motor in 5 months? It doesn't come from nowhere. Its a miracle they did their own CDAF!
They don't need any new patents, they can use what they already have. Maybe Pentax DC-motor will be best suited for new kit lens. Pentax has had CDAF on DSLR for some years so It's not something they done in 5 months, and K-01 has probably been in development for some years.

QuoteQuote:
I don't disagree many things could be better, should be better and I want them to be better. They will be. We'll get some really neat things from Ricoh in the next two years. We won't believe they're real, at first - we've been disappointed so often.

But we're going to wake up one day in 2014 and wonder how we got there.

Until then we really need to take things as they are and look at the good - and stop picking at the scabs as Ricoh heals this company. We're killing the damned camera on our owned Forum before Pentax has even started the manufacturing lines!!
Why don't you think we can discuss improvements to be done? I think this is a sign of users believing in the future of a brand, but wanting the brand to develop.
02-05-2012, 11:46 AM - 1 Like   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
It's not new, Pentax has used in-lens AF motors for years.
Silent in-lens autofocus motors?

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
They don't need any new patents, they can use what they already have. Maybe Pentax DC-motor will be best suited for new kit lens.
How expensive is a DC motor compared to what is in the current kit lens?

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Pentax has had CDAF on DSLR for some years so It's not something they done in 5 months
81-point CDAF with a new algorithm?

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
and K-01 has probably been in development for some years.
You do realize that (if true) it supports my point that Hoya had killed Pentax?

QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Why don't you think we can discuss improvements to be done? I think this is a sign of users believing in the future of a brand, but wanting the brand to develop.
Pentax developed a new Prime M imaging engine. That had likely been in development for quite some time. They developed a new CDAF autofocus system, also likely in development for some time. Who knows what they have done on EVF's? Part of the reason Ricoh only paid a small sum of money for Pentax is the follow-on investment necessary to make Pentax a competitor. Everything we ask for costs money.

I wrote that Ricoh intends to develop the brand and that in 2 years we won't believe how far we have come, but the constant posting of "Should-have-dones" to make the camera what "I want it to be" entirely misses the point. The K-01 isn't what we want it to be. Never was intended to be that. It is something new, for new users who aren't us and will never be us.

And it is a way to get some cash flow going without investing significant sums in new product development - cash flow that will be plowed back into more new products. That's how businesses are built these days.

We're aborting the camera.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-05-2012 at 12:29 PM.
02-05-2012, 12:39 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Silent in-lens autofocus motors?
Yes, I'll say that DC-motor is silent.

QuoteQuote:
How expensive is a DC motor compared to what is in the current kit lens?
I don't think it will be more expensive than screw-drive mechanism with quick shift mechanism. With a motor it will be many mechanical parts no longer needed in the lens making it easier and cheaper to manufacture. But I can of coure not say for sure as I don't have any details of what these parts cost.

QuoteQuote:
81-point CDAF with a new algorithm?
My K7 has "unlimited" selectable AF points in CDAF mode. I guess Pentax chose to limit AF points to 81 on K-01 for it to be easier to handle.
Of course they can't have new algorithm in old cameras, unless Pentax choose to update software in those cameras.

QuoteQuote:
You do realize that (if true) it supports my point that Hoya had killed Pentax?
I don't think there was any case of Hoya killing Pentax, and if Hoya has developed most of K-01 (and Q, K-5, K-r and 645D) I would not call it killing Pentax.

QuoteQuote:
I wrote that Ricoh intends to develop the brand and that in 2 years we won't believe how far we have come, but the constant posting of "Should-have-dones" to make the camera what "I want it to be" entirely misses the point. The K-01 isn't what we want it to be. Never was intended to be that. It is something new, for new users who aren't us and will never be us.
I will wait for Ricoh to prove what they can do before I will be amazed.
It is these new users I'm thinking of, as many of them want to use a new camera for video, but they will most likely not like the whining noise of screw-drive AF. This alone can be something that makes them choose some other camera. I my experience it's often Pentax loud AF that make customers get some other camera, and now when HD video has become more important feature of a camera, a silent lens will be even more important.

QuoteQuote:
We're aborting the camera.
We are discussing a camera on a forum. I don't see what that has to do with new users that are not us.
02-05-2012, 12:57 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote

We are discussing a camera on a forum. I don't see what that has to do with new users that are not us.
Again, your many valid, technical arguments on the merits of DC motors and selectable CDAF focus points are meaningful for enthusiasts and professional or near-professional dSLR users paying $1400 US for a new, mid-range APSc body.

But not for a compact-format (if large) camera priced at $749 US. They're making feature decisions with variables measured in pennies.

And as to Hoya, in the first through third Japanese business quarters they laid off veteran employees and slowed investment in the brand to a trickle. We don't know that all these improvements weren't ready a full year ago.

As to just discussing on a Forum, play around in Google and see where these threads rank - the first things interested buyers read is everything we don't like about the camera or wish it had.

Talk about scaring people away - I'd take some focus noise for the money, but if the in-the-know PentaxForums community says the camera is unworthy I'll just get the NEX the salesman says I should buy.
02-05-2012, 01:47 PM   #74
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+1 monochrome for all those posts.

Couldn't have said better.
02-05-2012, 02:42 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
As to just discussing on a Forum, play around in Google and see where these threads rank - the first things interested buyers read is everything we don't like about the camera or wish it had.

Talk about scaring people away - I'd take some focus noise for the money, but if the in-the-know PentaxForums community says the camera is unworthy I'll just get the NEX the salesman says I should buy.
I just don't see that pointing out that Pentax kit lens has noisy AF will make much difference, as it will be one of the first thing anyone trying the camera will notice. And it will probably be the first thing a salesman will say too, or maybe the second thing after pointing out that K-01 is much larger than other MILC.

I think the main thing that may scare new users away is that Pentax want to be different, less mainstream. Not the things we say here on pentaxforums.
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