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03-28-2012, 06:05 AM   #466
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Are you in the same thread?

We are talking about a modified scope design and similiarly specced Pentax scopes use 3-4 elements (1 ED) and are just under $2000. It has much fewer lens elements than the more expensive ~10+ element designs with a 100mm front lens.

Anything above $2790 will be disappointing and anything below $1990 will be a positive surprise. My personal guess is around $2500 because of the focus motor, aperture, and possible additional rear lens group working as a field flattener.

Note also that Pentax decided they have no market anymore in the $3000+ lens business. An assessment I am increasingly agreeing with.
Front lens size defines max. aperture 100 mm is a must for the 560 mm lens at f/5.6. Scope design is OK, but there is a trade off in image quality from center to the field. A couple (much less than 10+) lens elements are sufficient even for tele lenses - there are nice designs and there are stupid and heavy designs. Nikon/Canon use image stabilization etc. and that requires many many more lens elements - maybe they are not smart enought to solve IQ problem any other way. I think a doubled or triplet should suffice for a 560 mm lens, but f/5.6 is really wide open. Expect another lens and yes, you will have to pay extra for the 100 mm element. Really good scopes - those with really good off center quality cost more than $2700. I will be happy to see then it arrives

03-28-2012, 07:20 AM   #467
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I'll be very surprised if this lens cost less than $4000
03-28-2012, 07:46 AM   #468
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Many of us would be very surprised if it costs that much Pal, that put's it in the territory of the much more sophisticated and faster Full Frame Sigma 500 4.5 which also has IS built in for one.
a simpler telescopic design, with no complexity added by IR and apsc coverage not ff at a stop slower should be significantly less expensive to produce. It doesn't look to be in the same class as the older super teles like the FA*400 or FA* 600, but more in the design territory of the K500 or K400 with AF added in.
03-28-2012, 08:00 AM   #469
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I'd guess MSRP of $2500 right now.

Whether it's $1500 or $4000, though, I'm pretty sure that Pentax is going to give us good value for our money. I.e. if it's $1500 it'll probably have CA and poor off-center performance, but it'll be cheap. If it's $4k it'll probably be WR and pretty damn perfect.

From everything I see it looks like Ricoh is trying to put Canon out of business.

03-28-2012, 08:47 AM   #470
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Many of us would be very surprised if it costs that much Pal, that put's it in the territory of the much more sophisticated and faster Full Frame Sigma 500 4.5 which also has IS built in for one.
a simpler telescopic design, with no complexity added by IR and apsc coverage not ff at a stop slower should be significantly less expensive to produce. It doesn't look to be in the same class as the older super teles like the FA*400 or FA* 600, but more in the design territory of the K500 or K400 with AF added in.
An original prime lens may cost twice as much as a lens from the third party manufacturers. Usually they are built to tighter standards and also sell in significant smaller volumes than third party lenses which only (amost) reason for existence is price.
If I remember correctly, the A* 600/5.6 costed more than the A* 300/2.8. The latter would probably cost around $6000 nowadays. While the 560/5.6 may have a simpler optical cosntruction than the 600/5.6, as indicated by the non * designation, it is debatable how much you save by removing a few lens elements; more than $1000?
BTW I think it should be at least as good as the FA* 400/5.6 and the A* 600/4; both are lenses that could be improved....
My guess is $4000 and up. Remember I was correct when guessing the price of the 25mm for the 645D; I guessed $5000....
03-28-2012, 09:14 AM   #471
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
I'll be very surprised if this lens cost less than $4000
If it's 4 lens design it would have less glass in it then the DA*300

If the price would indeed be $4000 then why didn't they add a grand more and make it into a DA* lens?
03-28-2012, 11:16 AM   #472
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
If it's 4 lens design it would have less glass in it then the DA*300

If the price would indeed be $4000 then why didn't they add a grand more and make it into a DA* lens?
It is the big front element(s) that cost money. There rest is almost free in comparison. Probably a few tens of dollars.
You could conceivably skip on edge performances by making it a DA lens for a cropped sensor. But how much cost reduction we are talking about is an open question. You still need exotic glass to reduce fringing....
03-28-2012, 11:27 AM   #473
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It is the big front element(s) that cost money. There rest is almost free in comparison. Probably a few tens of dollars.
any idea about the difference in cost for such a frontlens? This is 100mm (560mm/f5.6) but they could also have made a 90mm frontglas (500mm/f5.6).

03-28-2012, 12:11 PM   #474
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It is the big front element(s) that cost money. There rest is almost free in comparison.
If you look at the DA*300 it has 3 elements the size of the front element.
It's guesing how many elements the DA560 will have but you need to look at everything.
If the DA560 will only have 1 front element then you're talking about 1x 100mm lens instead of 3x 77mm, then the DA560 front parts will be cheaper.
03-28-2012, 12:45 PM   #475
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anvh Quote
If you look at the DA*300 it has 3 elements the size of the front element.
It's guesing how many elements the DA560 will have but you need to look at everything.
If the DA560 will only have 1 front element then you're talking about 1x 100mm lens instead of 3x 77mm, then the DA560 front parts will be cheaper.
I don't think so.
03-28-2012, 02:45 PM   #476
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actually Ron 1 100 mm element vs 3 elements in the DA* should be cheaper overall. If they build to DA* levels on the 560 then it would be likely to build it as an f4-4.5 as well and sell it for $5000
03-28-2012, 02:55 PM   #477
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
actually Ron 1 100 mm element vs 3 elements in the DA* should be cheaper overall. If they build to DA* levels on the 560 then it would be likely to build it as an f4-4.5 as well and sell it for $5000
Again price estimates are far too low. A 560/4 ED IF lens will cost $8000. A 25/4 for the 645 system cost $5000......
03-28-2012, 04:40 PM   #478
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
A 560/4 ED IF lens will cost $8000. A 25/4 for the 645 system cost $5000......
Can't be, 560 divided by 25 is 22, so it should cost $110,000!
03-28-2012, 04:59 PM   #479
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Again price estimates are far too low. A 560/4 ED IF lens will cost $8000. A 25/4 for the 645 system cost $5000......
My take is that your numbers are close. The competition seems to have 600 f/4's price at around 10k. Making them
a little slower and a little shorter, and maybe skimping on the quality a little will let them undersell the competition
by some but not a whole lot.

I have a 600 f/5.6 which is sort of a bench mark for me as to what it takes for a lens of this magnitude. When you
consider that the 600 f5.6 required a 112mm front element, and the 600 f/4 took a 150mm front element, while
the 400 f/5.6 got by with a 77mm front end. (I used screw in filter sizes as approximation of the front element size)
and the 400/f2.8 has a 145mm front element, it isn't that hard to see that there is a well out there when you try
to make long/fast lenses that is very expensive.

another ugly fact--if you look at the historical pentax glass the only long lense with a 'simple construction (4 elements)
was the Pentax K-500/f4.5.---but it had a downside---it wouldn't focus closer than 10 meters. Design parameters
of today's lenses are that they need focusing methodology that is light enough to be movable with camera supplied power.
Glass such as my A*600 f5.6 has double helicoids in it and focusing involves moving 2 elements---one in each direction.
It makes for quite a stiff twist for manually focusing and it isn't even clear to me whether the Petax AF system
can produce the horsepower to move that much glass.
03-28-2012, 05:05 PM   #480
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Can't be, 560 divided by 25 is 22, so it should cost $110,000!
Don't forget the "crop factor", 560mm will be for around 2 times smaller sensor than this 25mm, so cost would be $55,000
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