New Lenses Announcement (K and Q mount)

falconeye · 02-10-2012, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

A mechanical solutuion would be necessary

I don't think so. A mechanical solution cannot protect from protrusions deep enough to reach the mirror before you touch the mount. A modified mount buys you a few mm only.

But the good part of the story is this:

Anybody trying to mount a Pentax XS lens to his EOS body may break it. So, we really do not want it to become idiot-proof, do we?

ogl · 02-10-2012, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Gimbal

No, but it's pretty close. Lets hope the mirror mechanism is built to not be damaged if locked down by the lens.

On a FF though there will be mirror damage if a lens is forced into the mount.

Youtu.be

PAY ATTENTION - HOW DEEP MOUNT HOLE..

**monochrome** · 02-10-2012, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

I don't think so. A mechanical solution cannot protect from protrusions deep enough to reach the mirror before you touch the mount. A modified mount buys you a few mm only.

But the good part of the story is this:

Anybody trying to mount a Pentax XS lens to his EOS body may break it. So, we really do not want it to become idiot-proof, do we?

Yeah, I got that correction on another thread, too.

I still can't believe Pentax would market a mass market lens that could damage currently-issued bodies (for that matter legacy digital bodies).

Kunzite · 02-10-2012, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

I don't think so. A mechanical solution cannot protect from protrusions deep enough to reach the mirror before you touch the mount. A modified mount buys you a few mm only.

You're assuming the protrusion would reach the mirror when trying (unsuccessfully) to mount the lens on an incompatible body; but you shouldn't. The prototype lens looks like it would barely miss the mirror, which makes sense since it would avoid an expensive repair. Of course, this means they can't go very deep, but still it should be better for wides.
OTOH, the software "solution" doesn't protect against anything. One would have to remember to properly set the camera, and as I've said I very much doubt the current cameras would keep the mirror up without batteries no matter what firmware changes. Anything happens - and you're in for an expensive repair; how is that safer?

eddie1960 · 02-10-2012, 12:34 PM

my comment on another thread on this is

Quote:

Of course the thing is Pentax has always been backward compatible ie old lenses fit on new bodies
you can't mount your k lenses on an m42 body
your DA lenses (with some exceptions) won't work or are crippled on almost all film bodies
so now you have a body that takes all the old glass and works with all of it, but there is a new lens that doesn't work with the older body design (read SLR)

Not a massive issue for most who will own this camera, and requires some common sense from the rest of us (Pentax is DOOMED to a class action lawsuit then

)

dougfrey · 02-10-2012, 08:29 PM

Dose anyone know if the new 1.4 TC would be compatible with 3rd party lens? Specifically some of the Sigma telephoto zooms that do do not support Sigma TC. Also, dose anyone know why the Sigma lens do not support TC's?

falconeye · 02-11-2012, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

You're assuming the protrusion would reach the mirror when trying (unsuccessfully) to mount the lens on an incompatible body; but you shouldn't. The prototype lens looks like it would barely miss the mirror
...
OTOH, the software "solution" doesn't protect against anything.

My proposal is logical and this is the last time I am commenting on it ...

Nothing is idiot proof and an XS lens can probably break a 5DmkII

So what?

My proposal is meant to enable the use of XS lenses on Pentax dSLR bodies, where e.g., the RAW button activates MLU and the firmware prevents the camera from moving its mirror as long as the lens is mounted.

It is still the user's task to see a lens with protruding element and mirror and refrain from mounting. This holds true independently from brand and a firmware update. As it seems, mounting an XS lens on a Pentax dSLR is safe anyway, only shooting w/o the upgrade isn't. Although I believe the mirror risks no damage if it is blocked by the lens at its down position.

So, the firmware upgrade I proposed risks nothing at all. It only increases the usability of XS lenses.

So, that was my contribution and I leave the topic to others to continue to discuss, what idiots might do etc.

vladimiroltean · 02-11-2012, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

My proposal is meant to enable the use of XS lenses on Pentax dSLR bodies, where e.g., the RAW button activates MLU and the firmware prevents the camera from moving its mirror as long as the lens is mounted.

Do you think Pentax will release a firmware update that transforms the K-5 into a K-01 for free?

Kunzite · 02-11-2012, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by falconeye

My proposal is meant to enable the use of XS lenses on Pentax dSLR bodies, where e.g., the RAW button activates MLU and the firmware prevents the camera from moving its mirror as long as the lens is mounted.

And again, if the battery dies the mirror will go down - the firmware cannot prevent this. Is holding the mirror up - for a camera that wasn't designed for this - an energy free operation? I doubt it. It's nowhere near a "risk free operation", even if correct, careful usage is ensured.
I don't understand why are you against hardware changes that would make it work better and safer. A mechanical lock for the mirror, a method of preventing the mounting on incompatible cameras, an EF-S-like way of raising the mirror which could grant full compatibility... not everything can be solved by software

By the way, most Pentax DSLRs require the mirror to come down after each exposure in order to be able to shoot again. The K-5 is an exception.

That's exactly what I'm doing, discussing your idea, trying to improve it and to think of alternate solutions. Hopefully this way we'll have better ideas, and see some of them implemented on future cameras (or even past ones, if a firmware will suffice).
For this, a little bit of flexibility when valid arguments are presented is required.

P.S. The 40mm XS won't break it

And it certainly can be used on the K-5.

falconeye · 02-11-2012, 11:28 AM

Originally posted by kcobain1992

Do you think Pentax will release a firmware update that transforms the K-5 into a K-01 for free?

No, because the K-5 wouldn't be the same shooting experience. It s because the K-5 shutter can't remain open like the K-01's. The K-5 curtains close where the K-01 can shoot with clsing only one curtain. The K-5 will feel more sluggish than K-01 when shooting in LV. So, Pentax could offer this upgrade w/o risking much sales loss.

markku55 · 02-11-2012, 11:45 AM - **1 Like**

My opinnion about Pentax lens road map is that there will not be any new FF body in close future, and I'm really disapointed about that

Pentax seems to be focusing on 645 and APS-C, and FF will be dropped from this collection of future

I'm going to see more what Sony will do in FF range, sorry!
In the case of portable cameras I will consentrate on micro 4/3 Oly in future, APS-C is too close FF and not giving enough of size andvantages compared to FF.
New m4/3 like oly ME5 will be really interested product, especially because of fast CAF and the best picture stabilisation today.

vladimiroltean · 02-11-2012, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by falconeye

It s because the K-5 shutter can't remain open like the K-01's. The K-5 curtains close where the K-01 can shoot with clsing only one curtain. The K-5 will feel more sluggish than K-01 when shooting in LV. So, Pentax could offer this upgrade w/o risking much sales loss.

I know that in live-view mode, the K-5 drops its mirror and closes the shutter, takes the picture as normal, and then enters live-view mode again. What I'm not sure is how shooting is implemented in the K-01, or any mirrorless for that matter. Since the shutter has to be closed first before taking the exposure, I suppose there is some kind of shutter lag. Or is it?

Gimbal · 02-11-2012, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by kcobain1992

I know that in live-view mode, the K-5 drops its mirror

No it doesn't, but it does cycle the shutter.

Zygonyx · 02-12-2012, 12:18 PM

Originally posted by markku55

My opinnion about Pentax lens road map is that there will not be any new FF body in close future, and I'm really disapointed about that

Pentax seems to be focusing on 645 and APS-C, and FF will be dropped from this collection of future

I'm going to see more what Sony will do in FF range, sorry!
In the case of portable cameras I will consentrate on micro 4/3 Oly in future, APS-C is too close FF and not giving enough of size andvantages compared to FF.
New m4/3 like oly ME5 will be really interested product, especially because of fast CAF and the best picture stabilisation today.

Have you looked to Samsung NX series, it seems the new NX200 has quite some arguments ?

**7samurai** · 02-12-2012, 09:20 PM

Originally posted by markku55

Pentax seems to be focusing on 645 and APS-C, and FF will be dropped from this collection of future

I believe Pentax has had a level of success with their APS-C and 645 that probably exceeded their expectations.

The 645 has garnered it's fair share of awards and is a space where both Nikon and Canon currently don't play in. It filled with niche manufacturers where Pentax is starting to look like the big fish or at least the sweet spot.

They have also garnered their fair share of success in the APS-C market. It would make sense to strengthen their position before moving into the full-frame. Let Nikon and Canon fight it out for full frame, while Pentax invades the APS-C region.

I believe a full-frame will eventually happen. Looking at the lens road map it doesn't look this year or next. Then again, no one expected all these announcments during CP+.

I do find it interesting that the 645 lens roadmap looks very good. I wouldn't be surprised that they come out with the first MF camera with DSLR functionality. ie K5 in MF. That would definitely warp the playing field.

02-10-2012, 08:29 PM	#171
dougfrey Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Algonquin, IL Posts: 26	New DA 1.4x rear teleconverter Dose anyone know if the new 1.4 TC would be compatible with 3rd party lens? Specifically some of the Sigma telephoto zooms that do do not support Sigma TC. Also, dose anyone know why the Sigma lens do not support TC's?

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02-10-2012, 10:59 AM	#166
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by monochrome A mechanical solutuion would be necessary I don't think so. A mechanical solution cannot protect from protrusions deep enough to reach the mirror before you touch the mount. A modified mount buys you a few mm only. But the good part of the story is this: Anybody trying to mount a Pentax XS lens to his EOS body may break it. So, we really do not want it to become idiot-proof, do we?

02-10-2012, 12:12 PM	#168
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by falconeye I don't think so. A mechanical solution cannot protect from protrusions deep enough to reach the mirror before you touch the mount. A modified mount buys you a few mm only. But the good part of the story is this: Anybody trying to mount a Pentax XS lens to his EOS body may break it. So, we really do not want it to become idiot-proof, do we? Yeah, I got that correction on another thread, too. I still can't believe Pentax would market a mass market lens that could damage currently-issued bodies (for that matter legacy digital bodies).

02-10-2012, 12:28 PM	#169
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by falconeye I don't think so. A mechanical solution cannot protect from protrusions deep enough to reach the mirror before you touch the mount. A modified mount buys you a few mm only. You're assuming the protrusion would reach the mirror when trying (unsuccessfully) to mount the lens on an incompatible body; but you shouldn't. The prototype lens looks like it would barely miss the mirror, which makes sense since it would avoid an expensive repair. Of course, this means they can't go very deep, but still it should be better for wides. OTOH, the software "solution" doesn't protect against anything. One would have to remember to properly set the camera, and as I've said I very much doubt the current cameras would keep the mirror up without batteries no matter what firmware changes. Anything happens - and you're in for an expensive repair; how is that safer?

02-10-2012, 12:34 PM	#170
eddie1960 Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Toronto Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 13,666	my comment on another thread on this is Quote: Of course the thing is Pentax has always been backward compatible ie old lenses fit on new bodies you can't mount your k lenses on an m42 body your DA lenses (with some exceptions) won't work or are crippled on almost all film bodies so now you have a body that takes all the old glass and works with all of it, but there is a new lens that doesn't work with the older body design (read SLR) Not a massive issue for most who will own this camera, and requires some common sense from the rest of us (*Pentax is DOOMED* to a class action lawsuit then )

02-11-2012, 09:16 AM	#172
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by Kunzite You're assuming the protrusion would reach the mirror when trying (unsuccessfully) to mount the lens on an incompatible body; but you shouldn't. The prototype lens looks like it would barely miss the mirror ... OTOH, the software "solution" doesn't protect against anything. My proposal is logical and this is the last time I am commenting on it ... Nothing is idiot proof and an XS lens can probably break a 5DmkII So what? My proposal is meant to enable the use of XS lenses on Pentax dSLR bodies, where e.g., the RAW button activates MLU and the firmware prevents the camera from moving its mirror as long as the lens is mounted. It is still the user's task to see a lens with protruding element and mirror and refrain from mounting. This holds true independently from brand and a firmware update. As it seems, mounting an XS lens on a Pentax dSLR is safe anyway, only shooting w/o the upgrade isn't. Although I believe the mirror risks no damage if it is blocked by the lens at its down position. So, the firmware upgrade I proposed risks nothing at all. It only increases the usability of XS lenses. So, that was my contribution and I leave the topic to others to continue to discuss, what idiots might do etc.

02-11-2012, 09:24 AM	#173
vladimiroltean Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Bucharest, Romania Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,465	Originally posted by falconeye My proposal is meant to enable the use of XS lenses on Pentax dSLR bodies, where e.g., the RAW button activates MLU and the firmware prevents the camera from moving its mirror as long as the lens is mounted. Do you think Pentax will release a firmware update that transforms the K-5 into a K-01 for free?

02-11-2012, 10:05 AM	#174
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by falconeye My proposal is meant to enable the use of XS lenses on Pentax dSLR bodies, where e.g., the RAW button activates MLU and the firmware prevents the camera from moving its mirror as long as the lens is mounted. And again, if the battery dies the mirror will go down - the firmware cannot prevent this. Is holding the mirror up - for a camera that wasn't designed for this - an energy free operation? I doubt it. It's nowhere near a "risk free operation", even if correct, careful usage is ensured. I don't understand why are you against hardware changes that would make it work better and safer. A mechanical lock for the mirror, a method of preventing the mounting on incompatible cameras, an EF-S-like way of raising the mirror which could grant full compatibility... not everything can be solved by software By the way, most Pentax DSLRs require the mirror to come down after each exposure in order to be able to shoot again. The K-5 is an exception. That's exactly what I'm doing, discussing your idea, trying to improve it and to think of alternate solutions. Hopefully this way we'll have better ideas, and see some of them implemented on future cameras (or even past ones, if a firmware will suffice). For this, a little bit of flexibility when valid arguments are presented is required. P.S. The 40mm XS won't break it And it certainly can be used on the K-5.

02-11-2012, 11:28 AM	#175
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Originally posted by kcobain1992 Do you think Pentax will release a firmware update that transforms the K-5 into a K-01 for free? No, because the K-5 wouldn't be the same shooting experience. It s because the K-5 shutter can't remain open like the K-01's. The K-5 curtains close where the K-01 can shoot with clsing only one curtain. The K-5 will feel more sluggish than K-01 when shooting in LV. So, Pentax could offer this upgrade w/o risking much sales loss.

02-11-2012, 11:45 AM - 1 Like	#176
markku55 Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Hanko, Finland Posts: 223	My opinnion about Pentax lens road map is that there will not be any new FF body in close future, and I'm really disapointed about that Pentax seems to be focusing on 645 and APS-C, and FF will be dropped from this collection of future I'm going to see more what Sony will do in FF range, sorry! In the case of portable cameras I will consentrate on micro 4/3 Oly in future, APS-C is too close FF and not giving enough of size andvantages compared to FF. New m4/3 like oly ME5 will be really interested product, especially because of fast CAF and the best picture stabilisation today.

02-11-2012, 01:18 PM	#177
vladimiroltean Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Bucharest, Romania Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,465	Originally posted by falconeye It s because the K-5 shutter can't remain open like the K-01's. The K-5 curtains close where the K-01 can shoot with clsing only one curtain. The K-5 will feel more sluggish than K-01 when shooting in LV. So, Pentax could offer this upgrade w/o risking much sales loss. I know that in live-view mode, the K-5 drops its mirror and closes the shutter, takes the picture as normal, and then enters live-view mode again. What I'm not sure is how shooting is implemented in the K-01, or any mirrorless for that matter. Since the shutter has to be closed first before taking the exposure, I suppose there is some kind of shutter lag. Or is it?

02-11-2012, 01:55 PM	#178
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	Originally posted by kcobain1992 I know that in live-view mode, the K-5 drops its mirror No it doesn't, but it does cycle the shutter.

02-12-2012, 12:18 PM	#179
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	Originally posted by markku55 My opinnion about Pentax lens road map is that there will not be any new FF body in close future, and I'm really disapointed about that Pentax seems to be focusing on 645 and APS-C, and FF will be dropped from this collection of future I'm going to see more what Sony will do in FF range, sorry! In the case of portable cameras I will consentrate on micro 4/3 Oly in future, APS-C is too close FF and not giving enough of size andvantages compared to FF. New m4/3 like oly ME5 will be really interested product, especially because of fast CAF and the best picture stabilisation today. Have you looked to Samsung NX series, it seems the new NX200 has quite some arguments ?

02-12-2012, 09:20 PM	#180
7samurai Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Rancho Cucamonga, CA Photos: Albums Posts: 474	Originally posted by markku55 Pentax seems to be focusing on 645 and APS-C, and FF will be dropped from this collection of future I believe Pentax has had a level of success with their APS-C and 645 that probably exceeded their expectations. The 645 has garnered it's fair share of awards and is a space where both Nikon and Canon currently don't play in. It filled with niche manufacturers where Pentax is starting to look like the big fish or at least the sweet spot. They have also garnered their fair share of success in the APS-C market. It would make sense to strengthen their position before moving into the full-frame. Let Nikon and Canon fight it out for full frame, while Pentax invades the APS-C region. I believe a full-frame will eventually happen. Looking at the lens road map it doesn't look this year or next. Then again, no one expected all these announcments during CP+. I do find it interesting that the 645 lens roadmap looks very good. I wouldn't be surprised that they come out with the first MF camera with DSLR functionality. ie K5 in MF. That would definitely warp the playing field.