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02-29-2012, 09:48 AM   #181
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Ok I just checked Adorama and BandH, D700= $2699, 5D= $2399, K5= $1199. That's more than a "few hundred" and those FF's are pretty old models. D800= $2999. I didn't check Sony so I have no idea on their prices. The only other FF manufacturer I know of is Leica. Is Sony actually selling their cameras? I just have no clue.

02-29-2012, 10:18 AM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Ok I just checked Adorama and BandH, D700= $2699, 5D= $2399, K5= $1199. That's more than a "few hundred" and those FF's are pretty old models. D800= $2999. I didn't check Sony so I have no idea on their prices. The only other FF manufacturer I know of is Leica. Is Sony actually selling their cameras? I just have no clue.
The Sony 850 is now gone, the 900 is on a run out basis the new models (3 of them apparently including a NEX if rumours are true) will be out for the fall

the 5DIi and D700 are going to hold their prices until the 5DIII and D800 actually hit the street I would think. D800 has been up on some sites already for $300 less but won't really move
K5 is available easily at 999 or less but when the replacement launched it to will be back at $1500 or so I bet. If Canon and Nikon decide to continue the old models they will have dropped by then as well
The next year is shaping up to be the game changing year for FF (Sony planning 3 models is a pretty good indicator - canon and nikon will have 2 new models each and may continue with the old as has been rumoured heavily (or they may launch stripped down variants at Photokina) either way that would give each of them 3 models which at this point is already more than Pentax has in APSC, not to mention the huge number of APSC models they offer - not discounting the number of SLT Sony offer which really are the same target as a DSLR). If Pentax is serious now under ricoh (and I believe they are ) I think we can expect a 4 body lineup excluding mirrorless and 645 by year end. whether one of those is FF or not is yet to be determined but it makes sense. Speaking as an ex retailer i can tell you Pentax would have a much better chance of a core listing on the floor with this kind of line, particularly if it is backed with good dealer support and the line shows value versus Canikon (which I don't think Sony really does BTW their name being their greatest strength their product design and execution being their weakest - and pricing is never value at Sony never has been in any category)
02-29-2012, 10:19 AM   #183
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Ok I just checked Adorama and BandH, D700= $2699, 5D= $2399, K5= $1199. That's more than a "few hundred" and those FF's are pretty old models. D800= $2999. I didn't check Sony so I have no idea on their prices. The only other FF manufacturer I know of is Leica. Is Sony actually selling their cameras? I just have no clue.
and 5DIII should sell for 10 % less then D800 is expected.
02-29-2012, 10:34 AM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
and 5DIII should sell for 10 % less then D800 is expected.
5D3 is currently rumoured at $3300 but there is nothing official out until next week, and the market price is never the MSRP

02-29-2012, 10:44 AM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
SNIP

I think this is the big drawback to getting FF business from Canon and Nikon. They just have all the extras and the right lenses. Give Pentax about 2-3 years and they can compete if they want to make the lenses. But for a $2500+ camera you have to have at the very least 35mm F1.4, 50mm 1.4, 85mm F1.4, 24-70mm F2.8 and 70/80-200mm F2.8 or they won't be able to sell them in a large enough quantity to be competitive.
A digital LX FF could have an interchangeable VF to distinguish it from CaNikon. To do that it must be a professional camera to justify the necessary price. I imagine a professional user needs a system, including lenses and accessories, as well as B&M presence, rental availablilty, hardware dependability, quick, good service (better than C.R.I.S.), parts inventory, and likely more. Pentax marketing to that segment would need to be more hands-on than depending on dpreview to give a fair write up. I imagine they would need a sa;es representative team to give workshops on the camera; sample lend-outs; relationship building, etc. People cost a lot more money than hardware.

Developing a camera and some lenses isn't such a big deal. Buying some kind of brand identity isn't such a big deal. Building all the peripherals to justify a professional ommitment to Pentax (in the USA, at least) is a much taller order.

Developing several levels of body I think would similarly require better distribution, staffing and support to be done effectively. B&H, Adorama, Amazon and Walmart just won't cut the mustard.

In Asia I could see Pentax doing so. In France, maybe. The rest of Europe, possibly.

I have my doubts whether Ricoh could do all that in three years in the USA.

All that being said I believe Ricoh through Pentax will make a run at the professional market in 2013. Whether that means they will do it with a traditional FF line remains to be seen.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-29-2012 at 12:13 PM.
02-29-2012, 11:42 AM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
As for MILC eating entry DSLR it's already happening.
No it isn't. Millions of mirrorless has been sold, but entry level DSLR sales are increasing. Whats dropping is P&S sales...
02-29-2012, 11:45 AM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
But for a $2500+ camera you have to have at the very least 35mm F1.4, 50mm 1.4, 85mm F1.4, 24-70mm F2.8 and 70/80-200mm F2.8 or they won't be able to sell them in a large enough quantity to be competitive.
.

Sorry to be so contradictory:

Extremely few people, probably less than 1%, buy 35/1.4 or 85/1.4 lenses. Whats really needed are professional grade zooms and high quality consumer zooms for FF. 95% of lenses sold are zooms.
02-29-2012, 11:49 AM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
and just tooting WR won't be enough. Every FF made is WR at the moment (well maybe not leica) and they are all mag alloy construction. It needs to be different and offer something the others don't
I'm back to the LX D with interchangeable VF types compact size great build ......and maybe 24mp rather than the 36 mp but at $2000 street price (even if MSRP is $2200 at announcement

this makes lot's of current users happy, and creates a product for other users to lust after and a reason to move.

It is unrealistic to expect an FF Pentax cheaper than what Nikon and Canon sells them for. A Pentax will cost $3000+

An interchangeable viewfinder FF camera is intriguing but it will not make the camera cheaper. However, many finder types can be realized, including an electronic one transforming it into a mirrorless (with the mirror permanently in the up position).

02-29-2012, 11:51 AM   #189
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Frankly, an 'affordable' FF should be avaliable with following middle range lenses:
* 50/1.4 and 50/1.8-2
* 35/2
* 24-28/2-2.5
* 85/1.8-2
* 135/2.8

+ 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8

Don't expect an affordable camera to trigger high/very high end lenses.
Once sales good enough though, higher end lenses may come too.
02-29-2012, 12:15 PM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote



It is unrealistic to expect an FF Pentax cheaper than what Nikon and Canon sells them for. A Pentax will cost $3000+

An interchangeable viewfinder FF camera is intriguing but it will not make the camera cheaper. However, many finder types can be realized, including an electronic one transforming it into a mirrorless (with the mirror permanently in the up position).
Precisely the premise of my earlier post. I'm not saying Pentax cannot/will not offer a FF body soon (to the contrary, I think they will). I am saying the economics of offering a similar spec'ed camera at a similar price point to CaNikon don't seem to work very well, as you replied.
02-29-2012, 01:15 PM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote



It is unrealistic to expect an FF Pentax cheaper than what Nikon and Canon sells them for. A Pentax will cost $3000+

An interchangeable viewfinder FF camera is intriguing but it will not make the camera cheaper. However, many finder types can be realized, including an electronic one transforming it into a mirrorless (with the mirror permanently in the up position).
It was unrealistic to expect *istDS in 2005. Better camera then Canon Digital Rebel, and if my memory serves me correctly I purchased it for just over $800, almost $200 cheaper then Canon Digital Rebel.

But anyways, I do not think Pentax will do FF camera, it's been almost 10 years that I am shooting Pentax and lurking PentaxForums, and all this 10 years I see these numerous threads about mythical FF Pentax creature. Pentax FF is just like a unicorn.

The truth is Pentax probably waited too long already. Whoever really wanted FF left Pentax years ago.
02-29-2012, 02:26 PM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Frankly, an 'affordable' FF should be avaliable with following middle range lenses:
* 50/1.4 and 50/1.8-2
* 35/2
* 24-28/2-2.5
* 85/1.8-2
* 135/2.8

+ 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8

Don't expect an affordable camera to trigger high/very high end lenses.
Once sales good enough though, higher end lenses may come too.
somehow I doubt 24 or 28 f2 would be affordable, also 135/2 wouldn't come cheap. And if you look at the CaNiSon prices of 24-70 + 70-200 f2.8s they are far from affordable. Especially considering Pentax would surely make those DA*s so fully WR and SDM/DC, ABC too..

Affordable starter lenses would IMO be;
28/2.8 WR DC
50/1.4 or 1.7
85/2 WR DC
135/3.5 DFA L DC

28-80/4 WR DC

Upper line:
FA Ltds

Pro Line:
DFA*
24/2
50/1.2
85/1.4
135/1.8

18-35/2.8
28-70/2.8
80-200/2.8

the last three would have DC PZ in addition to SDM AF

my 2p dream
02-29-2012, 07:59 PM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by awo425 Quote
But anyways, I do not think Pentax will do FF camera, it's been almost 10 years that I am shooting Pentax and lurking PentaxForums, and all this 10 years I see these numerous threads about mythical FF Pentax creature. Pentax FF is just like a unicorn. The truth is Pentax probably waited too long already. Whoever really wanted FF left Pentax years ago.
While it may seem that way, I also see that Ricoh has effectively brought back into light the dead lens roadmap that Hoya ditched some years ago too. While the idea of FF is pretty farfetched, who knows if the Ricoh guys find some ol' blueprint for the MZ-D, and somehow, for some reason, get inspired to continue it?

This is my FF dream: a Pentax LX-D (high end pro) and Pentax MZ-S D (low end? pro). The LX-D will have interchangeable parts, focused on getting the best out of low-fps stills, with high MP count and amazing DR control. Then the MZ-S D will be the sports/fast action kind of pro cam, with lower MP count (16-18MP probably) but higher burst rates. Both cameras will have dual memory slots, the LX-D having an option for both CF and SD, and two processors - one dedicated to image and the other for AF. Well, that's just dreaming awake, anyway. lol
03-01-2012, 01:10 AM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
While it may seem that way, I also see that Ricoh has effectively brought back into light the dead lens roadmap that Hoya ditched some years ago too.
True... And in the interview with Pentax it was said that some lenses are not on the roadmap. Maybe, to not spoil the big surprise?


QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
While the idea of FF is pretty farfetched, who knows if the Ricoh guys find some ol' blueprint for the MZ-D, and somehow, for some reason, get inspired to continue it?
There was propably a recent prototype on the shelve at the time Ricoh bought Pentax. No doubt, together with all kinds of other prototypes. R&D departments are always thinking of new stuff.
03-01-2012, 05:59 AM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
In Asia I could see Pentax doing so. In France, maybe. The rest of Europe, possibly.
Uuhhhh, considering the weak presence of Pentax in South-East Asia, that would be a VERY tall order...
Finding them in Thailand is tough. Singapore? Not there. Same in KL. Cambodia was the first country I saw a shop carrying Pentax...
China? No one cares for Pentax there, I've seen 2 guys with a Pentax in 4 months there, compared to bazillions with Canikon.

Problem is, distribution in Asia is way more problematic: there are few big shops as Fnac (in Europe), or Adorama (in the US).
So you have to cater to A LOT of very small shops, and that's no easy task.

It wouldn't surprise me that Pentax is 5 or 6th in Asia, behind Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Sony and/or Panasonic.
When you see their presence on the shelves, it's no surprise. Pentax is nowhere to be seen.

Last time I paid attention here (Thailand), Ricoh had much more exposure than Pentax.
For Pentax to gain marketshares, I can't begin to imagine the investment in both money and time needed. Even with the backing of Ricoh.


France/Europe, where users are more conscious about Price/Performance, Pentax has a much better presence. It would be much easier to start there indeed, and build from there.

But Asia? I am a little doubtful, unfortunately...
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