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03-04-2012, 01:18 PM   #301
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ubuntu_user Quote
I don't see why they wouldn't be steamed! I mean, with the D800 out that is much higher MP and has a lower MSRP... well? The price of the 5d mk3 had better drop or else I'd imagine there'd be some Canon people switching.
Sorry...meant they're steamed because they perceive the mkIII is $1500 more than the mkII....comparing MSRP w/ EOL street prices

03-04-2012, 03:36 PM   #302
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
I wonder if this analogy really stands up, the idea that it's all about getting customers onto an escalator and then keep them moving up. I would have thought the reality is that only a small percentage of customers will move up the escalator at all, let alone all the way up. Many folks will never look further than a particular price point come features set. Under-pricing some parts of the range to lure customers into other parts which are overpriced may work with some industries, but I wonder if photography is one of them.

I'm not sure I really buy another common assumption, namely that if or perhaps when Pentax produce an FF they will only produce one which is quite different from what everyone else does. The problem with this notion is that everyone else is doing the sensible thing: they are sitting in the middle of the market where the sales are and the economies of scale too. Saying that you'll stay well away from the bulk of demand and only do niches isn't much of a strategy for long-term survival and not credible at all if, as has been claimed, Ricoh have big plans for their photography division and Canon in their sights. It only makes sense if the pitch is that you're a specialist company in the first place and Pentax have never been anything of the kind. Well, we'll see soon enough, I guess.
Well, I think it isn't just the cameras, but also that nearly all of Nikon's high-end lenses are full frame compatible. Sure, you can use them on a crop frame camera, but there will always be a nagging idea in the back of your mind that they were really made for that full frame sensor...

In general, APS-C cameras tend to be have lower specifications than full frame cameras as well. Maybe this is protecting the higher end, maybe it is just a matter of keeping the price down on the lower end. Either way, if you need those higher specs, you have to move up to full frame.

Truthfully, it is those higher end specs -- better tracking, better auto focus that attract me to full frame, not more narrow depth of field, which seems adequately narrow already with APS-C.
03-04-2012, 06:00 PM   #303
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Can you quote research to prove that assertion? - just asking. It may be true, and its not illegal, but a true capitalistic marketplace without monopolies, will eventually work against that arrangement. For example, before Pentax had a MF, Nikon should have been able to sell their aps cameras for much less than Pentax if they cost shifted FF monies, but they didn't.

FF dlsrs are highly priced because there is high overhead involved in their development, high sensor cost, and it has to be paid off by the purchases of a very few customers (who need such a camera)
(High sensor cost and development overhead)/(fewer customers than aps)=a high purchase price even without any cost shifting.

Without some strong business reason (such as a short term loss for long term gain), corporations will eventually drop product lines that can't pay for themselves. It may be more likely that the aps cameras are supporting the FF cameras.

I've read that in past years, that the true cost of 1st class airplane seats were not fully paid by 1st class fares - that they were charged lower fares due to cost shifting from the masses in the back of the plane.
I think we are saying the same thing.

Cost averaging in airlines is the norm, but business class margins were always the cream. That's why I have always understood. That's why gate location is bid on at a premium. Time is money for the suits.

APS-C is carrying gross revenues for these companies based on unit sales, especially Nikon where the P&S segment is where they are a bit player. They are a DSLR company. Without APS-C sales, they'd have so little gross revenues they'd be nothing. Pentax is all APS-C sales save for a slim # of 645D's and P&S's. Are they going to risk that stream going for FF and its huge development costs?

I have always said that sensor cost and the margins charged are the issue for Pentax. Sony apparently make large margins off their Kyushu operations at a time when their consumer electronics arm is stagnant and in the red. There is no incentive for Sony to drive down FF prices. All that would happen is to make FF closer to their bread and butter APS-C. Cannibalization. Not good.
03-04-2012, 09:03 PM   #304
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ubuntu_user Quote
I don't see why they wouldn't be steamed! I mean, with the D800 out that is much higher MP and has a lower MSRP... well? The price of the 5d mk3 had better drop or else I'd imagine there'd be some Canon people switching.
Well I can tell you as a Nikon user and D800 buyer, I wish it had the Canon sensor. I think 36MP is way over the top. Not much you can do about it. I cannot understand why Nikon didn't do 18 or so MP. I bet the Canon users are going to be happier with their cameras than us D800 people.

03-04-2012, 09:25 PM   #305
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QuoteOriginally posted by stanleyk Quote
Well I can tell you as a Nikon user and D800 buyer, I wish it had the Canon sensor. I think 36MP is way over the top. Not much you can do about it. I cannot understand why Nikon didn't do 18 or so MP. I bet the Canon users are going to be happier with their cameras than us D800 people.
Why is it so many people are complaining about this?

The extra pixels don't negatively effect ANY camera property except file size and burst speed.

If you compare with low light ISO capabilities of the D4, it is only slightly better and because of a different fab, not because of larger pixels. The D800 will shine at low ISO though.

I would have thought that the Nokia mobile phone with 41MP would make more people realize that 36MP is a small number for a full frame sensor.
03-05-2012, 01:13 AM   #306
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Why is it so many people are complaining about this?

The extra pixels don't negatively effect ANY camera property except file size and burst speed.
Well, this is not camera related but it will have a negative impact on the speed of my RAW workflow and size of my storage. I would need to buy a faster computer, bigger memory cards, bigger external hard disk drives... But maybe I'm willing to live with that if the end result is that I will finally have a digital SLR with a Pentax K mount...
03-05-2012, 01:43 AM   #307
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Why is it so many people are complaining about this?
Because the value of megapixel amounts are vastly overrated. I'm shocked to see that there are loads of people on this photography forum who seem to think that more MP's automatically means higher IQ.


QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The extra pixels don't negatively effect ANY camera property except file size and burst speed.
And the buffer capacity. And the postprocessing speed. And your computer's hardware and software requirements.


QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I would have thought that the Nokia mobile phone with 41MP would make more people realize that 36MP is a small number for a full frame sensor.
Again, I'm shocked that people see a number in the specs "41mp" and automatically assume it means high IQ. They are so obsessed with specs, that most even think the pics produced by the phone are actually good too. Even after they have seen them! But if you look objectively at the sample pics, you have to conclude that the IQ isn't all that good.

Agreed, they look good for a 5 MP camera, which it is. It would have been better for Nokia to print 5 MP on the phone and specs instead.
03-05-2012, 04:40 AM   #308
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I'm shocked to see that there are loads of people on this photography forum who seem to think that more MP's automatically means higher IQ.
But it does. We may talk about the size of increase though.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
And the buffer capacity. And the postprocessing speed. And your computer's hardware and software requirements.
Which I already said above: file size and burst speed.

Buffer capacity is memory which (unlike sensors) is evolving rapidly and can cope with this.

But you're right, a small RAW file format (like Canon offers) may suit some users who aren't after resolution but still need RAW.

QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
But if you look objectively at the sample pics, you have to conclude that the IQ isn't all that good.
-> Falk Lumo: The iCamera (Nokia 808 Pureview) Part I

Obviously, I disagree.

03-05-2012, 07:35 AM   #309
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Well, this is not camera related but it will have a negative impact on the speed of my RAW workflow and size of my storage. I would need to buy a faster computer, bigger memory cards, bigger external hard disk drives... But maybe I'm willing to live with that if the end result is that I will finally have a digital SLR with a Pentax K mount...
This exactly. I'm hoping I want have to buy a new computer to use the camera. I know I'm going to need an extra hard drive. The more I think about this the more I'm tempted to cancel the darn thing. I wish I wasn't so heavily invested in Nikon lenses.
03-05-2012, 07:45 AM   #310
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Well, this is not camera related but it will have a negative impact on the speed of my RAW workflow and size of my storage. I would need to buy a faster computer, bigger memory cards, bigger external hard disk drives... But maybe I'm willing to live with that if the end result is that I will finally have a digital SLR with a Pentax K mount...
Well when I bought my first digital camera in 2008 I had to do something about my computer. I updated again when i got my first dslr (K20D) in januari 2009. Also the K-7 did something for my pc. The K-5 and my run into sportsphotography also made me upgrade SDHC cards and PC performance. I now run a six core superfast PC, so I can handle one more genreation camera's. But I know most people will have to make another run and update their computers before those new camera's can be handled well.
03-05-2012, 08:07 AM   #311
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well when I bought my first digital camera in 2008 I had to do something about my computer. I updated again when i got my first dslr (K20D) in januari 2009. Also the K-7 did something for my pc. The K-5 and my run into sportsphotography also made me upgrade SDHC cards and PC performance. I now run a six core superfast PC, so I can handle one more genreation camera's. But I know most people will have to make another run and update their computers before those new camera's can be handled well.
Will any change in your iamge quality result in more revenue to your business in order to justify the capital outlay?
03-05-2012, 08:24 AM   #312
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Will any change in your iamge quality result in more revenue to your business in order to justify the capital outlay?
With K-5 you can make sportsimages almost anywhere and be able (Image quality wise) to sell them for internet exposure or for newspaper. For modern glossy magazines it can't compete with D3s image quality wise for (most) indoor or evening sports. This means that a magazine would only buy such an image (if ever) when there is no competing alternative supplier.

I'm not a big selling sportsphotographer yet.
03-05-2012, 08:24 AM   #313
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well when I bought my first digital camera in 2008 I had to do something about my computer. I updated again when i got my first dslr (K20D) in januari 2009. Also the K-7 did something for my pc. The K-5 and my run into sportsphotography also made me upgrade SDHC cards and PC performance. I now run a six core superfast PC, so I can handle one more genreation camera's. But I know most people will have to make another run and update their computers before those new camera's can be handled well.
Man you must do a lot of processing, that is hard to imagine. I shoot daily with the K-5 and 7D 16&18MP and I still use an old Acer laptop with and AMD chip. 3 years old now. Running CS5. I did have to up the memory to 8GB. But it still process just fine. A little slow when doing major PS. But nothing bad. I travel about 300 day a year and use 2-1.5 T.B externals. I keep what I want and throw away the junk shots ( which by the way is allot ). I calibrate the monitor best I can and go on. Some of you guys must be heavvvvvvvy photographers. I shoot about 5-25 GB/day. Throw away and process daily. WOW, What is your workflow?

Also I want the MP after learning the processing in raw. It is amazing the info all those MP bring to the table.... Yummy..

Last edited by garyk; 03-05-2012 at 08:39 AM.
03-05-2012, 08:40 AM   #314
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I'm shocked to see that there are loads of people on this photography forum who seem to think that more MP's automatically means higher IQ.
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
But it does. We may talk about the size of increase though.
The higher IQ of more MP's seems more theoretical than practical. If I pixel-peep, I can notice a difference between the output of the 10MP K200D and the 16MP K-5, but for the larger printing sizes I occasionally use (12x18, 16x24), I'm hard pressed to notice any differences at normal viewing distances.

I can appreciate the handful of photographers who do print in large sizes and can benefit from a 36MP sensor. But I suspect that most photographers don't need so large a sensor and won't derive any real practical advantage from it. There's a reason why Nikon's high-end "professional" DSLR, the D4, is only 16MP: professional photographers, because they must meet a bottom line, must be practical, and 16MP is far more practical for most types of photography than 36MP. Photography, like everything else, is about trade-offs, and given all the costs and hassles associated wth the significantly larger MP size, the slight increase in IQ simply isn't worth it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if we see a fair amount of buyer's remorse over the D800.
03-05-2012, 08:46 AM   #315
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QuoteOriginally posted by garyk Quote
Man you must do a lot of processing, that is hard to imagine. I shoot daily with the K-5 and 7D 16&18MP and I still use an old Acer laptop with and AMD chip. 3 years old now. Running CS5. I did have to up the memory to 8GB. But it still process just fine. A little slow when doing major PS. But nothing bad. I travel about 300 day a year and use 2-1.5 T.B externals. I keep what I want and throw away the junk shots ( which by the way is allot ). I calibrate the monitor best I can and go on. Some of you guys must be heavvvvvvvy photographers. I shoot about 5-25 GB/day. Throw away and process daily. WOW, What is your workflow?

Also I want the MP after learning the processing in raw. It is amazing the info all those MP bring to the table.... Yummy..
Well my brother is in the PC bussiness, building, maintenance and sales of computers, so he makes me a new one (demo mostly). The six core is a little overboard, and almost never gets to 100 % CPU usage, but is also handy for video. I have 4 harddrives in it and also an external harddrive with usb 3.0 connection.

I'm not working on a daily basis, so do some sports events and then make a lot of pictures. Selecting and deleting pictures is something I now do in lightroom but also done that with connecting my K-5 with hdmi-cable to my screen and just browsing true the pictures. Trowing away pictures is now also my second hobby after taking them.
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