Rumor: Pentax FF Sept 18-23, 2012

Anvh · 02-18-2012, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by Pontax

Just a thought, can the existing 16mp on the K5 be coupled, thereby getting a 32mp FF sensor.

Sensor aren't edgeless so you will have an edge in the middle of the frame so that doesn't work.

Originally posted by RonHendriks1966

Well a mix-up with this sensor rumor for Leica is logic, since that would be presented in Germany:

What sensor will Leica use in the new M10? | Leica News & Rumors

But that is 24 megapixel CCD from Dalsa. So what are the chances on that?

As quoted earlier here.

CCD, doubt we will see that in these class of DSLR any more.

ogl · 02-18-2012, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by Anvh

Sensor aren't edgeless so you will have an edge in the middle of the frame so that doesn't work.

CCD, doubt we will see that in these class of DSLR any more.

3.6 fps 24 MP CCD...Dalsa is expensive. It's only for Leica. Not for Pentax.

unixrevolution · 02-18-2012, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Raffwal

Now that's a pretty original joke.

Recycled thread, recycled jokes.

**Pål Jensen** · 02-18-2012, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

If Pentax can get access to a ready supply of sensors they are ready to make a high quality, somewhat different (unique) FF camera at a compelling price point. But they can't get the sensors (Nikon controls theirs, Sony controls theirs and Canon actively prevents others access). .

Seriously doubt that. Sony semiconductor is in the market for selling sensors...

Asahiflex · 02-18-2012, 10:09 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

Seriously doubt that. Sony semiconductor is in the market for selling sensors...

+1. It's definitely not in Sony's interest to limit the FF sensor buyers to Nikon and Sony only, despite some well-known PF members saying so. If Nikon goes belly up then they have a big problem. I can understand Sony not selling Nikon-spec sensors to anyone but Nikon, but Sony's own version of that sensor? They want sales, sales, sales.

If Nikon has a problem with that then it's up to them to find another supplier. Oh wait... :P

RonHendriks1966 · 02-18-2012, 11:09 AM

Originally posted by ogl

3.6 fps 24 MP CCD...Dalsa is expensive. It's only for Leica. Not for Pentax.

How much more expensive then say a Sony 24 MP CMos sensor?

Well when a pentax FF is going to run on a single PRIME M processor then 3.6 fps at 24 MP is a lot of pixels to digest.

thibs · 02-18-2012, 11:47 AM

Sony's interest is to sell more, for sure. But if Nikon pays loads of cash to Sony so Sony let's exclusivity to Nikon (and Sony of course) for a couple months, would Sony Sensors department listen ?

I expect them to. No reason for Intel (for computer market comparison) would be alone. Sony is THE major sensor supplier and Nikon is THE major customer (Canon ruled out because the have their own sensors). Don't tell me there's no deals under the table to keep other sensors suppliers out of Nikon and keep other camera manufacturers out (or negligable) of Sony.

**Pål Jensen** · 02-18-2012, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by thibs

Sony's interest is to sell more, for sure. But if Nikon pays loads of cash to Sony so Sony let's exclusivity to Nikon (and Sony of course) for a couple months, would Sony Sensors department listen ?.

No they woudn't. I believe this is nothing but a myth. While it is very likely that Sony make some bespoke sensors for Nikon, they are otherwise a parts supplier for the industry. There are litterally thousands of parts in a camera and the manufacturers are depending on long term relationships with reliable subcontractors; not companies that may refrain from selling a component because some other customer have paid them to.
I think the main reason that Pentax may be a bit later with some sensors has to do with the initial cost factors. Sensors probably drop in price over time. Particularly when the developing cost are covered.

Winder · 02-18-2012, 01:34 PM

I would be willing to bet the Sony's pricing structure is volume based, and Pentax can simply not buy the volume to qualify for the pricing they need to be competitive in the FF market. Nikon is projecting 30,000 D800 a month which would mean that Sony has to provided 30,000+ sensors per month. There are rumors that Nikon has an exclusive on the 36MP until 2013 and that Sony will release a 24MP in the A99 in September. It also appears there will be another OVF Sony DSLR. It is still possible we will see an A9xx. SLT is not catching on for higher end users.

RonHendriks1966 · 02-18-2012, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Winder

I would be willing to bet the Sony's pricing structure is volume based, and Pentax can simply not buy the volume to qualify for the pricing they need to be competitive in the FF market. Nikon is projecting 30,000 D800 a month which would mean that Sony has to provided 30,000+ sensors per month. There are rumors that Nikon has an exclusive on the 36MP until 2013 and that Sony will release a 24MP in the A99 in September. It also appears there will be another OVF Sony DSLR. It is still possible we will see an A9xx. SLT is not catching on for higher end users.

Could be very true. Maybe they can jump on with the 24mp sensor from Sony, since Sony isn't going to sell the numbers of Nikon by them selfes eiter. For Pentax I presume that a production of 2,000 FF camera's a month is all to plan for production and salesnumbers.

**Pål Jensen** · 02-18-2012, 02:18 PM

Originally posted by Winder

SLT is not catching on for higher end users.

SLT was a failure for Canon...

**Aristophanes** · 02-18-2012, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by Asahiflex

+1. It's definitely not in Sony's interest to limit the FF sensor buyers to Nikon and Sony only

Yes it is. If you want to keep margins high leap competition down. It's a classic biz strategy.

I've heard rumours of Nikon exclusives as have others.

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

No they woudn't. I believe this is nothing but a myth. While it is very likely that Sony make some bespoke sensors for Nikon, they are otherwise a parts supplier for the industry. There are litterally thousands of parts in a camera and the manufacturers are depending on long term relationships with reliable subcontractors; not companies that may refrain from selling a component because some other customer have paid them to.
I think the main reason that Pentax may be a bit later with some sensors has to do with the initial cost factors. Sensors probably drop in price over time. Particularly when the developing cost are covered.

It's volume. The cost per unit Pentax can afford is nowhere close to what Nikon can. Sony sells 100% of its FF sensors to Nikon at substantial profit. They will not jeopardize that lucrative cash flow to make Pentax happy because supplying two competitors will drive the demand price down.

Originally posted by Winder

I would be willing to bet the Sony's pricing structure is volume based, and Pentax can simply not buy the volume to qualify for the pricing they need to be competitive in the FF market. Nikon is projecting 30,000 D800 a month which would mean that Sony has to provided 30,000+ sensors per month. There are rumors that Nikon has an exclusive on the 36MP until 2013 and that Sony will release a 24MP in the A99 in September. It also appears there will be another OVF Sony DSLR. It is still possible we will see an A9xx. SLT is not catching on for higher end users.

Absolutely. Sony semi is selling at high margins to one major customer and keeping the rest for itself. Pentax does not have the funding to buy at those volumes so must look elsewhere for FF or delay the development.

It is in Sony's best interest to keep FF between them, Canon, Nikon, and Leica.

Smolk · 02-18-2012, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Designosophy

Full frame be damned. I'm hoping for a large format - 8 x 10, gigapixel sensor, brand-new lens mount for which there are no existing lenses. Only $99,000.

large format digital backs exist. and there are lenses for it too.
I still think Pentax is on the way to a FF camera, and that the new design was a clever choice.
Apple were nowhere until the candy iMacs appeared.
If I could afford a K-01 now, I'd buy one. Perhaps good that I cannot, so I may have more funds when the K-2 is launched

unixrevolution · 02-18-2012, 07:22 PM

Originally posted by Pål Jensen

SLT was a failure for Canon...

The canons actually split the image between VF and film, so the finder was dim and the film is at a .5-1 stop loss.

The Sony only splits off enough light for a meter and autofocus. Its a much better system than was possible with Canons Film pellicle mirror system.

**Pål Jensen** · 02-19-2012, 05:12 AM

Originally posted by Aristophanes

I've heard rumours of Nikon exclusives as have others..

I've herad rumors that it is internet rumours with no basis in reality....

02-18-2012, 01:12 PM	#68
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by thibs Sony's interest is to sell more, for sure. But if Nikon pays loads of cash to Sony so Sony let's exclusivity to Nikon (and Sony of course) for a couple months, would Sony Sensors department listen ?. No they woudn't. I believe this is nothing but a myth. While it is very likely that Sony make some bespoke sensors for Nikon, they are otherwise a parts supplier for the industry. There are litterally thousands of parts in a camera and the manufacturers are depending on long term relationships with reliable subcontractors; not companies that may refrain from selling a component because some other customer have paid them to. I think the main reason that Pentax may be a bit later with some sensors has to do with the initial cost factors. Sensors probably drop in price over time. Particularly when the developing cost are covered. Last edited by Pål Jensen; 02-18-2012 at 01:20 PM.

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02-18-2012, 08:55 AM	#61
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by Pontax Just a thought, can the existing 16mp on the K5 be coupled, thereby getting a 32mp FF sensor. Sensor aren't edgeless so you will have an edge in the middle of the frame so that doesn't work. Originally posted by RonHendriks1966 Well a mix-up with this sensor rumor for Leica is logic, since that would be presented in Germany: What sensor will Leica use in the new M10? \| Leica News & Rumors But that is 24 megapixel CCD from Dalsa. So what are the chances on that? As quoted earlier here. CCD, doubt we will see that in these class of DSLR any more.

02-18-2012, 09:10 AM	#62
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by Anvh Sensor aren't edgeless so you will have an edge in the middle of the frame so that doesn't work. CCD, doubt we will see that in these class of DSLR any more. 3.6 fps 24 MP CCD...Dalsa is expensive. It's only for Leica. Not for Pentax.

02-18-2012, 09:18 AM	#63
unixrevolution Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Waldorf, MD Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,861	Originally posted by Raffwal Now that's a pretty original joke. Recycled thread, recycled jokes.

02-18-2012, 09:54 AM	#64
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by monochrome If Pentax can get access to a ready supply of sensors they are ready to make a high quality, somewhat different (unique) FF camera at a compelling price point. But they can't get the sensors (Nikon controls theirs, Sony controls theirs and Canon actively prevents others access). . Seriously doubt that. Sony semiconductor is in the market for selling sensors...

02-18-2012, 10:09 AM - 1 Like	#65
Asahiflex Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,795	Originally posted by Pål Jensen Seriously doubt that. Sony semiconductor is in the market for selling sensors... +1. It's definitely not in Sony's interest to limit the FF sensor buyers to Nikon and Sony only, despite some well-known PF members saying so. If Nikon goes belly up then they have a big problem. I can understand Sony not selling Nikon-spec sensors to anyone but Nikon, but Sony's own version of that sensor? They want sales, sales, sales. If Nikon has a problem with that then it's up to them to find another supplier. Oh wait... :P

02-18-2012, 11:09 AM	#66
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by ogl 3.6 fps 24 MP CCD...Dalsa is expensive. It's only for Leica. Not for Pentax. How much more expensive then say a Sony 24 MP CMos sensor? Well when a pentax FF is going to run on a single PRIME M processor then 3.6 fps at 24 MP is a lot of pixels to digest.

02-18-2012, 11:47 AM	#67
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Sony's interest is to sell more, for sure. But if Nikon pays loads of cash to Sony so Sony let's exclusivity to Nikon (and Sony of course) for a couple months, would Sony Sensors department listen ? I expect them to. No reason for Intel (for computer market comparison) would be alone. Sony is THE major sensor supplier and Nikon is THE major customer (Canon ruled out because the have their own sensors). Don't tell me there's no deals under the table to keep other sensors suppliers out of Nikon and keep other camera manufacturers out (or negligable) of Sony.

02-18-2012, 01:34 PM	#69
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	I would be willing to bet the Sony's pricing structure is volume based, and Pentax can simply not buy the volume to qualify for the pricing they need to be competitive in the FF market. Nikon is projecting 30,000 D800 a month which would mean that Sony has to provided 30,000+ sensors per month. There are rumors that Nikon has an exclusive on the 36MP until 2013 and that Sony will release a 24MP in the A99 in September. It also appears there will be another OVF Sony DSLR. It is still possible we will see an A9xx. SLT is not catching on for higher end users.

02-18-2012, 01:51 PM	#70
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Winder I would be willing to bet the Sony's pricing structure is volume based, and Pentax can simply not buy the volume to qualify for the pricing they need to be competitive in the FF market. Nikon is projecting 30,000 D800 a month which would mean that Sony has to provided 30,000+ sensors per month. There are rumors that Nikon has an exclusive on the 36MP until 2013 and that Sony will release a 24MP in the A99 in September. It also appears there will be another OVF Sony DSLR. It is still possible we will see an A9xx. SLT is not catching on for higher end users. Could be very true. Maybe they can jump on with the 24mp sensor from Sony, since Sony isn't going to sell the numbers of Nikon by them selfes eiter. For Pentax I presume that a production of 2,000 FF camera's a month is all to plan for production and salesnumbers.

02-18-2012, 02:18 PM	#71
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Winder SLT is not catching on for higher end users. SLT was a failure for Canon...

02-18-2012, 05:28 PM	#72
Aristophanes Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Rankin Inlet, Nunavut Photos: Albums Posts: 3,948	Originally posted by Asahiflex +1. It's definitely not in Sony's interest to limit the FF sensor buyers to Nikon and Sony only Yes it is. If you want to keep margins high leap competition down. It's a classic biz strategy. I've heard rumours of Nikon exclusives as have others. Originally posted by Pål Jensen No they woudn't. I believe this is nothing but a myth. While it is very likely that Sony make some bespoke sensors for Nikon, they are otherwise a parts supplier for the industry. There are litterally thousands of parts in a camera and the manufacturers are depending on long term relationships with reliable subcontractors; not companies that may refrain from selling a component because some other customer have paid them to. I think the main reason that Pentax may be a bit later with some sensors has to do with the initial cost factors. Sensors probably drop in price over time. Particularly when the developing cost are covered. It's volume. The cost per unit Pentax can afford is nowhere close to what Nikon can. Sony sells 100% of its FF sensors to Nikon at substantial profit. They will not jeopardize that lucrative cash flow to make Pentax happy because supplying two competitors will drive the demand price down. Originally posted by Winder I would be willing to bet the Sony's pricing structure is volume based, and Pentax can simply not buy the volume to qualify for the pricing they need to be competitive in the FF market. Nikon is projecting 30,000 D800 a month which would mean that Sony has to provided 30,000+ sensors per month. There are rumors that Nikon has an exclusive on the 36MP until 2013 and that Sony will release a 24MP in the A99 in September. It also appears there will be another OVF Sony DSLR. It is still possible we will see an A9xx. SLT is not catching on for higher end users. Absolutely. Sony semi is selling at high margins to one major customer and keeping the rest for itself. Pentax does not have the funding to buy at those volumes so must look elsewhere for FF or delay the development. It is in Sony's best interest to keep FF between them, Canon, Nikon, and Leica.

02-18-2012, 06:50 PM	#73
Smolk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Eerbeek Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,857	Originally posted by Designosophy Full frame be damned. I'm hoping for a large format - 8 x 10, gigapixel sensor, brand-new lens mount for which there are no existing lenses. Only $99,000. large format digital backs exist. and there are lenses for it too. I still think Pentax is on the way to a FF camera, and that the new design was a clever choice. Apple were nowhere until the candy iMacs appeared. If I could afford a K-01 now, I'd buy one. Perhaps good that I cannot, so I may have more funds when the K-2 is launched

02-18-2012, 07:22 PM	#74
unixrevolution Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Waldorf, MD Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,861	Originally posted by Pål Jensen SLT was a failure for Canon... The canons actually split the image between VF and film, so the finder was dim and the film is at a .5-1 stop loss. The Sony only splits off enough light for a meter and autofocus. Its a much better system than was possible with Canons Film pellicle mirror system.

02-19-2012, 05:12 AM	#75
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,371	Originally posted by Aristophanes I've heard rumours of Nikon exclusives as have others.. I've herad rumors that it is internet rumours with no basis in reality....