[falconeye]

5.9 million SLRs are a bit more than I assumed for Nikon (which was more like 4 milion).
OTOH, 250$ profit per camera is in line with my assumptions (which is the order of 25% if 1000$ is an average price). I assumed closer to 40% for the D800 and there is no way Nikon is making less than 1000$ profit per D800.

[falconeye]

Well if you say the point of takeing the picture is the same, than of course you have the same shallow deth.But the picture is not the same ...

You really have to look carefully at the three images in my paper. They should show you where you make your error. The picture IS the same, you are missing something. I cannot know what. E.g., when the sensor changes, all of focal length, F-stop and ISO setting change too. In your thinking, you make different implicit assumptions which then are false.

[recando]

You really have to look carefully at the three images in my paper. They should show you where you make your error. The picture IS the same, you are missing something. I cannot know what. E.g., when the sensor changes, all of focal length, F-stop and ISO setting change too. In your thinking, you make different implicit assumptions which then are false.

If you have the same point of takeing the picture, same object, same lense and the same distance to the sensor, the picture is of course not the same on APS-C anf FF!
If you have a larger sensor, than you have a larger angel that can be shown on the sensor.
That should be clear.
So if you just compare the equal Picture, than the Shallow deth on FF is bigger.

[Winder]

10% for a dealer selling a camera which sells by itself is still a good deal. It reinforces Nikon's conviction to now have a camera everybody always wanted.

12 x 2700$ * 30,000 is 1 billion $$.

Who was it who claimed FF is a niche not worth to invest into?

Just to remember, Ricoh purchased Pentax for a tiny fraction of this ...

I purchased my K-5 from Samy's Camera for $759.00 when they screwed up and doubled the $300.00 instant rebate. They honored the price. After I placed the order I called to check on shipping and stock. The sales guy laughed about the mistake and said it would take 3 weeks to get more stock if I wanted to wait. He basically said to wait for stock and even if I did not want the camera to take it and sell it for profit. He said $759.00 was over $100.00 less than their cost.

If we assume $850.00 is dealer cost. How many K-5s has Pentax sold? Of that $850.00 how much is cost? Fuji sold over 100,000 X100s in 2011. Did Pentax top that?

[ElJamoquio]

You really have to look carefully at the three images in my paper. They should show you where you make your error. The picture IS the same, you are missing something. I cannot know what. E.g., when the sensor changes, all of focal length, F-stop and ISO setting change too. In your thinking, you make different implicit assumptions which then are false.

I think he's assuming the same lens with both sensors...?

I think it might be enlightening (similar to what you've said and written in your paper, and what I've said in the past) to give an example

Full-Frame: 31mm f/1.9
APS-C: 20mm f/1.2

Produce the same image, more or less.

[recando]

I think he's assuming the same lens with both sensors...?

I think it might be enlightening (similar to what you've said and written in your paper, and what I've said in the past) to give an example

Full-Frame: 31mm f/1.9
APS-C: 20mm f/1.2

Produce the same image, more or less.

Thanks El Jamoquio, this is the thing I always said. Did I made myself so unclaer?
So shallow deth is not the same one between FF and APS-C.

[RXrenesis8]

Thanks El Jamoquio, this is the thing I always said. Did I made myself so unclaer?

As a native english speaker I am having some trouble understanding your posts.

You both list your location as in Germany, perhaps things would be clearer between you two if the conversation was in German?

[jsherman999]

Face it, the D800 is a 1 billion $ annual revenue for Nikon.

Never again I want to hear the words "niche" and "full frame" together in one sentence

And that doesn't include the additional lens profits, where most of the margins in DSLR systems live.




.

[Tonto]

It does nothing of the sort. Either sort. But it does prove that Falk's Wiesn Girls are grown women.

Gotta love those Wiesn girls! I think I am the same age as Falk whatever his actual age is!
Ideal lens test subject!

[jsherman999]

5.9 million? Wow, that's a big number. Canon's got a bigger market share than Nikon, but still, Nikon's SLR sales must be in the neighborhood of 3-4mil or more, corroborating the other data point of ~300k per month for APS-C. Looking at the profit numbers, Canon's numbers yield ~$254 profit per camera. For argument's sake, let's assume that Nikon's books are similar, but that both make larger margins on FF, say $500 per FF camera. 360,000 x $500 = a cool $180 million. That's still a drop in the bucket of overall profit (likely single % points or overall profit), but still, that's a big drop in a big bucket!

The profit margins on Nikon's FF cameras are an intensely guarded secret, but it is known that the sensor used in the $7500 D3x cost Nikon about $500, and the sensor cost has probably gone down since 2008. The sensors simply don't cost what people think they do... and the profit margins on a non-discounted D800 is probably closer to $1000 - $1200 per unit than $500. Profit margins on the lux, overloaded D3x was still no less than (very conservatively) $2600 per unit (source: Tom Hogan, notably not Nikon, so it's still really educated guesswork. )

And then, you have to consider the lens sales.

So if Nikon sells 30k D800s per month, that's approximately 29.99k people per month with more money than photographic skill LOL!

I wonder if the K-01 ratio of units sold to folks-with-chops would be any higher! Anyway, good thing camera makers don't assess skill level before they ship a digital camera, none of us would have ever got started.


.

[falconeye]

Gotta love those Wiesn girls! ...
Ideal lens test subject!

We're talking FF here (again). So let me say that this kind of shots you better don't try to shoot with a D800. It would scare the girls A silver K-5 with DA15 is a perfect setup, as is a DA*60-250. Both lenses and the compact, friendly-looking SLR body is something you can't currently buy in FF land. Of course, this is more due to product policies than technology. But nevertheless it is a current weak spot of FF cameras. As is travelling with a 14x superzoom.

[Tonto]

I disagree! FF with the new 560 and TC, just set up a tent with some beer sponsorship on the side would make for the perfect 'hide' lol

[johnmflores]

We're talking FF here (again). So let me say that this kind of shots you better don't try to shoot with a D800. It would scare the girls A silver K-5 with DA15 is a perfect setup, as is a DA*60-250. Both lenses and the compact, friendly-looking SLR body is something you can't currently buy in FF land. Of course, this is more due to product policies than technology. But nevertheless it is a current weak spot of FF cameras. As is travelling with a 14x superzoom.

But Falk, those are "full-framed" girls for sure!

[Aristophanes]

Mirrors are still lucrative.

I keep telling everyone that. They are a cheap, sunk cost, low R&D, system with an enormous installed base to draw upon.

[rparmar]

When I was in sales i used to close sales to Asian women watching for that exact response. had about a 90% success rate in using that to read them. Hopefully he falls in that 90 %

He's not a woman -- does that skew the odds at all?