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02-23-2012, 03:51 PM   #211
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Nikon sold 22 million cameras in 2011.
Even if they sell 0,6 million FF per year, that'd be 2,7% vs. 97,3% others. A niche it stays.

PS: This excludes people who keep mobile phones for making pictures, which will be not a small number of people.
Well that must be with P&S.

I read somewhere that for D800 is a planning of production of 30.000 each month.

02-23-2012, 04:43 PM   #212
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Falk, did you see my question?

You seem to be making the assumption that equivalent ISO settings on small sensors can be made available by increasing their full well capacity.

While one can (almost) not argue about the concept, I find it a bit strange:
  1. Sensor size comparisons are typically made under a "everything else being equal" assumption. In your case smaller sensors need bigger full well capacities.
  2. If a certain full well capacity can be achieved with a small sensor, there is no reason why the latter would be reduced in larger sensors. In other words, real world sensors will have very comparable full-well capacities per sensel, no matter their overall size, provided that we are keeping the pixel pitch constant.
N.B., I wrote "almost" above because from a certain size on (towards "small") the flux needed to replicate the combined full-well capacities of a very large sensor would have to become prohibitively high.
02-23-2012, 05:18 PM   #213
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
I don't see the difference. The diagonal of a rectangle is the same as the diameter of the smallest circle it will fit in.
That'll teach me to build an audio plugin while writing about geometry.
02-23-2012, 05:35 PM   #214
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Falk, did you see my question?

You seem to be making the assumption that equivalent ISO settings on small sensors can be made available by increasing their full well capacity.
Class A, sorry, I missed your question.

I think we agree and you misread something in the paper. I actually state that equivalent ISO settings will be unavailable in small systems in general, showing the case of the FourThirds system.

As long as a given sensor is made with the same tech, its total full well capacity (sensel FWC times #pixels) scales with d^2. I don't say otherwise.

I only mention that theoretically, a smaller sensor could be made thicker (in an attempt to make it the same cost) to compensate and provide similiar DR. I say too that market forces don't allow this to happen.

So I think, we agree on everything here


P.S.
I applaud Sony to make the 36MP FF sensor ISO 100 (even ISO 50 in extended mode). There have been too many ISO 200 FF sensors to shave off a bit off the cost. I assume the D800 will be a DR monster exceeding 15EV DxO DR and beating any other camera including MF and D4.


Last edited by falconeye; 02-23-2012 at 05:45 PM.
02-23-2012, 08:30 PM   #215
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well that must be with P&S.

I read somewhere that for D800 is a planning of production of 30.000 each month.
360 000 - per year - just D800

But Nikon has D3X, D4, D700 and D3S
Nikon | Imaging Products | Digital SLR Cameras

FIVE FF cameras in production

It seems to me - FF is not 7% of all DSLR of Nikon
02-23-2012, 10:39 PM   #216
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
P.S.
I applaud Sony to make the 36MP FF sensor ISO 100 (even ISO 50 in extended mode). There have been too many ISO 200 FF sensors to shave off a bit off the cost. I assume the D800 will be a DR monster exceeding 15EV DxO DR and beating any other camera including MF and D4.
I am going to agree with you, the 36MP sensor in the D800 is purported to be the same EXMOR type Sony supplied for the K-5 and the D7000. Given that this type of sensors dynamic range expands almost linearly with ISO, and the K-5 peaks at just over 14 EV at 80 ISO I see no reason why the D800's wouldn't be able to come close to or even exceed 15 EV at 50 ISO!

Last edited by RXrenesis8; 02-24-2012 at 02:04 PM.
02-23-2012, 11:07 PM   #217
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
360 000 - per year - just D800

But Nikon has D3X, D4, D700 and D3S
Nikon | Imaging Products | Digital SLR Cameras

FIVE FF cameras in production

It seems to me - FF is not 7% of all DSLR of Nikon
Wait a minute.. 5 production lines of FF cameras, 6 if you include the D800E seperate from the D800.. but wait.. haven't there been grumblings of the lack of market for FF cameras.. I wonder why then Nikon is in the #1 spot in DSLR's then?

D90, D3000,D3100, D5000, D5100, D7000, D300S APS-C Camera Line.
D4, D3X, D3S, D800(E), D700 FF camera line

SO depending on how you catagorize the D800E FF DSLR's run 41-44% of Nikon's models available.. Canon themselves have 7 APS-C, 1 APS-H, 3 FF camera's.. soon to be 4 depending if they continue production of the 5D Mark II when the Mark III comes out.
If Pentax/Ricoh wants to play with the big boys.. it eventually has to at LEAST join the same game. Maybe with some more R&D money from Ricoh, they can get an AF system up to snuff to compete with Nikon.. that would/could spell trouble for Canon, as they too are playing catch up in the AF dept..
02-23-2012, 11:43 PM   #218
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Last edited by beholder3; 08-12-2013 at 01:44 AM. Reason: [deleted]
02-23-2012, 11:50 PM   #219
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I bet their margin's on the DSLR's are higher than the P&S's.. Regardless. ONE manufacturer selling 4.7 million DSLR's is a huge number.. I wonder how many $2000+ DSLR's were sold last year total..
02-23-2012, 11:51 PM   #220
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QuoteOriginally posted by filorp Quote
yeah..... maybe we should get our minds out of our niche...
Nice comic.. I bought that "niche" and I love it.. hoping it curbs my want/need for a tablet or laptop.. a good editing Desktop and my Galaxy Note... done (I hope!).
02-24-2012, 12:08 AM   #221
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chex Quote
Wait a minute.. 5 production lines of FF cameras, 6 if you include the D800E seperate from the D800.. but wait.. haven't there been grumblings of the lack of market for FF cameras.. I wonder why then Nikon is in the #1 spot in DSLR's then?

D90, D3000,D3100, D5000, D5100, D7000, D300S APS-C Camera Line.
D4, D3X, D3S, D800(E), D700 FF camera line

SO depending on how you catagorize the D800E FF DSLR's run 41-44% of Nikon's models available.. Canon themselves have 7 APS-C, 1 APS-H, 3 FF camera's.. soon to be 4 depending if they continue production of the 5D Mark II when the Mark III comes out.
If Pentax/Ricoh wants to play with the big boys.. it eventually has to at LEAST join the same game. Maybe with some more R&D money from Ricoh, they can get an AF system up to snuff to compete with Nikon.. that would/could spell trouble for Canon, as they too are playing catch up in the AF dept..
I see 2 FF cameras of Canon, 1 APS-H and 6 APS-C
Canon ???????? ?????????? ?????? - ???????????? - Canon ??????
02-24-2012, 12:10 AM   #222
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote

PS: Nikon sold 4,7 million DSLRs and 17 million non DSLRs.
OK...It means that Nikon's FF covers approx. 25% of all Nikon's sales (in quantity).
02-24-2012, 12:30 AM   #223
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I see 2 FF cameras of Canon, 1 APS-H and 6 APS-C
Canon ???????? ?????????? ?????? - ???????????? - Canon ??????
Well unfortunately for you, in Canada I have more products available I guess!
Digital SLR Cameras - Canon Canada Inc.
02-24-2012, 01:00 AM   #224
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QuoteOriginally posted by Chex Quote
Well unfortunately for you, in Canada I have more products available I guess!
Digital SLR Cameras - Canon Canada Inc.
I'm afraid - slow update of Canon Canada

Google ??????????

Canon offers only 9 cameras in Japan.

Insignificant stock - 1Ds Mark III and 1D mark IV

It means - EOS-1D X will completely change 2 old models.
02-24-2012, 05:49 AM   #225
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Ricoh wants to compete with Canon. Nikon is a different story altogether.
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