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02-26-2012, 11:11 PM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
The DX lenses will all mount and shoot just fine on any Nikon FF camera - some will even be usable in FX mode, much like some of our DA's would be usable on FF. The ones that aren't can be shot in DX mode until the FF buyer transitions to a full FX lens lineup (if yhey want to.) With the D800 giving 15+ MP in DX mode, with better high-ISO performance in crop mode than the D7000 natively, DX mode as a transition or even a partial destiniation is pretty attractive.

Even before the 36MP D800, the upgrade path was always filled with folks. Besides the kit lenses, Nikon has the following 'DX' lenses, and you saw these on craigslist and ebay quite a bit, especially that 16-85:

'DX' rated lenses (besides different 18-55, 55-200 kit lenses):

10.5 mm f/2.8G ED AF DX Fisheye
35mm f/1.8G AF-S DX NIKKOR
40 mm f/2.8G DX Micro-Nikkor
10–24 mm f/3.5-4.5G ED-IF AF-S DX
12–24 mm f/4G ED-IF AF-S DX
17–55 mm f/2.8G ED-IF AF-S DX[1]
18–135 mm f/3.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S DX
16–85 mm f/3.5-5.6G ED AF-S VR DX
18-200 mm f/3.5-5.6G ED-IF AF-S VR DX
55-300 mm f/4-5.6G ED AF-S VR DX
85mm f/3.5 micro ED AF-S VR DX

Here are the current Nikon FX lenses:

AF-S 14-24mm f/2.8G IF-ED
AF-S 16-35mm f/4G ED VR
AF-S 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED
AF-S 24mm f/1.4G ED
AF-S 24-70mm f/2.8G IF-ED
AF-S 24-85mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED
AF-S 24-120mm f/3.5-5.6G VR IF-ED
AF-S 24-120mm f/4G ED VR
AF-S 28-70mm f/2.8D IF-ED
AF-S 35mm f/1.4G
AF-S 50mm f/1.4G
AF-S 50mm f/1.8G
AF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR IF-ED
AF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED-IF VR DX II
AF-S 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR
AF-S 70-200mm f/2.8G VR IF-ED
AF-S 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR II
AF-S 80-200mm f/2.8D ED
AF-S 70-300mm f/4.5-5.6G VR IF-ED
AF-S 85mm f/1.4G
AF-S 85mm f/1.8G
AF-S 200mm f/2G VR IF-ED
AF-S 200mm f/2G ED VR II
AF-I 300mm f/2.8D IF-ED†
AF-S 300mm f/2.8D IF-ED II
AF-S 300mm f/2.8G VR IF-ED
AF-S 300mm f/2.8G ED VR II
AF-S 300mm f/4D IF-ED
AF-S 200-400mm f/4G VR IF-ED
AF-S 200-400mm f/4G ED VR II
AF-I 400mm f/2.8D IF-ED†
AF-S 400mm f/2.8D IF-ED†
AF-S 400mm f/2.8D IF-ED II
AF-S 400mm f/2.8G VR IF-ED
AF-I 500mm f/4D IF-ED´†
AF-S 500mm f/4D IF-ED†
AF-S 500mm f/4D IF-ED II
AF-S 500mm f/4G VR IF-ED
AF-I 600mm f/4D IF-ED†
AF-S 600mm f/4D IF-ED†
AF-S 600mm f/4D IF-ED II
AF-S 600mm f/4G VR IF-ED
AF-S Micro 60mm f/2.8G IF-ED
AF-S Micro 105mm f/2.8G VR IF-ED


In addition to that there are a ton of FX lenses not still in production that are being sold new old-stock, or used, like the 20 f/2.8D, 24 f/2.8D, 28 f/2.8D, 35 f/2D, 180 f/2.8 AF-N, 18-135, 18-105, etc

I dont know about anyone else but a huge list of Nikon lenses on this forum just makes me a little <j/ks> and probably a little envious too

02-27-2012, 02:07 AM   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
The DX lenses will all mount and shoot just fine on any Nikon FF camera - some will even be usable in FX mode, much like some of our DA's would be usable on FF. The ones that aren't can be shot in DX mode until the FF buyer transitions to a full FX lens lineup (if yhey want to.) With the D800 giving 15+ MP in DX mode, with better high-ISO performance in crop mode than the D7000 natively, DX mode as a transition or even a partial destiniation is pretty attractive.

Even before the 36MP D800, the upgrade path was always filled with folks. Besides the kit lenses, Nikon has the following 'DX' lenses, and you saw these on craigslist and ebay quite a bit, especially that 16-85:

'DX' rated lenses (besides different 18-55, 55-200 kit lenses):

10.5 mm f/2.8G ED AF DX Fisheye

AF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G DX VR IF-ED
AF-S 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED-IF VR DX II

AF-S 200mm f/2G VR IF-ED
AF-S 200mm f/2G ED VR II
AF-I 300mm f/2.8D IF-ED†
AF-S 300mm f/2.8D IF-ED II
AF-S 300mm f/2.8G VR IF-ED
AF-S 300mm f/2.8G ED VR II
AF-S 300mm f/4D IF-ED
AF-S 200-400mm f/4G VR IF-ED
AF-S 200-400mm f/4G ED VR II
AF-I 400mm f/2.8D IF-ED†
AF-S 400mm f/2.8D IF-ED†
AF-S 400mm f/2.8D IF-ED II
AF-S 400mm f/2.8G VR IF-ED
AF-I 500mm f/4D IF-ED´†
AF-S 500mm f/4D IF-ED†
AF-S 500mm f/4D IF-ED II
AF-S 500mm f/4G VR IF-ED
AF-I 600mm f/4D IF-ED†
AF-S 600mm f/4D IF-ED†
AF-S 600mm f/4D IF-ED II
AF-S 600mm f/4G VR IF-ED
AF-S Micro 60mm f/2.8G IF-ED
AF-S Micro 105mm f/2.8G VR IF-ED
By the way, you put all lenses in this list, but...the most lenses are out of production and new version is just upgrade of old one.
Do you really think that AF-I in production and VRII lenses are not upgrade of VR lenses and Nikon still manufactures TWO version of 18-200 or FOUR version of 500/4?
02-27-2012, 09:26 AM   #273
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
18-200mm
These are not full frame lenses. Full frame superzooms start in the 24-28mm range. It'd be neat if they started at 18 though!
02-27-2012, 09:52 AM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
.


Interesting commentary and speculation on FF, the upgrade path... and the beginning of the squeeze from above on aps-c, perhaps?
QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
The DX lenses will all mount and shoot just fine on any Nikon FF camera - some will even be usable in FX mode, much like some of our DA's would be usable on FF. The ones that aren't can be shot in DX mode until the FF buyer transitions to a full FX lens lineup (if yhey want to.) With the D800 giving 15+ MP in DX mode, with better high-ISO performance in crop mode than the D7000 natively, DX mode as a transition or even a partial destiniation is pretty attractive.

Even before the 36MP D800, the upgrade path was always filled with folks. Besides the kit lenses, Nikon has the following 'DX' lenses, and you saw these on craigslist and ebay quite a bit, especially that 16-85:

'DX' rated lenses (besides different 18-55, 55-200 kit lenses):

10.5 mm f/2.8G ED AF DX Fisheye
35mm f/1.8G AF-S DX NIKKOR
40 mm f/2.8G DX Micro-Nikkor
10–24 mm f/3.5-4.5G ED-IF AF-S DX
12–24 mm f/4G ED-IF AF-S DX
...
55-300 mm f/4-5.6G ED AF-S VR DX
85mm f/3.5 micro ED AF-S VR DX

Here are the current Nikon FX lenses:

AF-S 14-24mm f/2.8G IF-ED
AF-S 16-35mm f/4G ED VR
AF-S 17-35mm f/2.8D IF-ED
AF-S 24mm f/1.4G ED
AF-S 24-70mm f/2.8G IF-ED
...
AF-S 600mm f/4D IF-ED II
AF-S 600mm f/4G VR IF-ED
AF-S Micro 60mm f/2.8G IF-ED
AF-S Micro 105mm f/2.8G VR IF-ED


In addition to that there are a ton of FX lenses not still in production that are being sold new old-stock, or used, like the 20 f/2.8D, 24 f/2.8D, 28 f/2.8D, 35 f/2D, 180 f/2.8 AF-N, 18-135, 18-105, etc
I'll leave it to others to debate the accuracy of the list, but I don't that it effectively counters my point. Many novices on DX will buy DX lenses for any number of reasons - cost, size, no interest (at the moment) in FX, knowledge of FX, etc... Should anyone in this group eventually consider a move up to FX, they will have to evaluate their current and desired lenses. And in that process of evaluation the door to consider other brands is open.

I'm not saying that people won't stick with Nikon - just that the upgrade path is not as seamless as Thom Hogan and others imply.

02-27-2012, 10:25 AM   #275
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote

I'm not saying that people won't stick with Nikon - just that the upgrade path is not as seamless as Thom Hogan and others imply.
Exactly, It can be seamless, but the costing of the lenses needs to be taken into account. if you are ultimately going to sell off the dx lenses to fund the fx lenses and the dx body for the fx body there is no reason not to consider a competing brand if they have what you want at a better end value to you.
02-27-2012, 01:06 PM   #276
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tonto Quote
I dont know about anyone else but a huge list of Nikon lenses on this forum just makes me a little <j/ks> and probably a little envious too
Notice there are no Limiteds in that Nikon list, though
02-27-2012, 01:11 PM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by RXrenesis8 Quote
These are not full frame lenses. Full frame superzooms start in the 24-28mm range. It'd be neat if they started at 18 though!
Yes, two DX lenses were mixed in with the FX lenses there, cut & paste and missed edit on those.

And there is some listings of redundant/replaced lenses in the FX list as well - but it also doesn't include lenses you can get new-old stock, like the 24 2.8D, 20 2.8D, 35 f2, 28 2.8D, etc
02-27-2012, 01:21 PM   #278
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Thanks for this very interesting and totally out of subject Nikon's enlightening lecture.

02-27-2012, 01:22 PM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I'll leave it to others to debate the accuracy of the list, but I don't that it effectively counters my point. Many novices on DX will buy DX lenses for any number of reasons - cost, size, no interest (at the moment) in FX, knowledge of FX, etc... Should anyone in this group eventually consider a move up to FX, they will have to evaluate their current and desired lenses. And in that process of evaluation the door to consider other brands is open.

I'm not saying that people won't stick with Nikon - just that the upgrade path is not as seamless as Thom Hogan and others imply.
Of course folks could jump ship at the 'FX upgrade' point, and do, but it's usually pretty rare, and going to probably be even more rare now that a very affordable FX (D700 discounted to $2200 new and maybe less) and very DX-friendly FX (D800 = 15MP in crop) exist.

It's not seamless, it can never be, but it's a bit easier and more logical than Q --> aps-c --> 645D
02-27-2012, 01:28 PM   #280
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
it's not seamless, it can never be, but it's a bit easier and more logical than q --> aps-c --> 645d
lol. Ftw!
02-27-2012, 01:31 PM   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Of course folks could jump ship at the 'FX upgrade' point, and do, but it's usually pretty rare, and going to probably be even more rare now that a very affordable FX (D700 discounted to $2200 new and maybe less) and very DX-friendly FX (D800 = 15MP in crop) exist.

It's not seamless, it can never be, but it's a bit easier than Q --> aps-c --> 645D
645D was never meant as an upgrade path (MF has always existed as a separate commodity and has it''s adherents) the Q seems odd
I agree though within K mount there needs to be that path sooner rather than later. Not sure how long Nikon will keep the D700 in production at this point as there has been no announcement one way or the other AFAIK
But if Pentax hit with a K5 grade FF with AF and Flash tweak at $2000 but with a 24mp sensor rather than the D700 sensor i think it would sell well and tempt some people from the other lines. Pentax's big advantage is not needing to drop any feature on their FF as they have no higher level model to support - many of the features have high value but low manufacturing cost for brands like Nikon and they use the D4 level as a cash cow If you want FPS you need to go D4 for example. there is definitely some interesting options for Pentax to take advantage of IMO
02-27-2012, 04:40 PM   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Notice there are no Limiteds in that Nikon list, though
Aye, and there's the rub.
02-27-2012, 07:04 PM - 1 Like   #283
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Did you just call me a baby?

The point I am making is that FF no longer can be considered a niche market -- since it now creates the bulk of profit for the camera makers (and above I showed that this can't be negated). Any conclusions derived from this fact are up to you and anybody else.
It IS a niche market. Cameras costing in excess of $2000 is forever niche. The 30 000 units a month is planned initial volumes. They have a strong tendency to drop dramatically after a few months; particularly for a product in this class that does not sell steadily to the average consumer.
02-28-2012, 12:54 AM   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It IS a niche market. Cameras costing in excess of $2000 is forever niche. The 30 000 units a month is planned initial volumes. They have a strong tendency to drop dramatically after a few months; particularly for a product in this class that does not sell steadily to the average consumer.
Anyone know the sales numbers of the 5d Mk ii? Its huge user share over at Flickr makes me think that it has indeed been sold to quite a few "average customers".
02-28-2012, 07:17 AM   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
Anyone know the sales numbers of the 5d Mk ii? Its huge user share over at Flickr makes me think that it has indeed been sold to quite a few "average customers".
Exactly

People forever underestimate the size of this market. Market size is elastic as well people forget this. look at the MF market before the 645D came out. First year the market doubled due to one high value camera, and it made the others get more competitive as well

Go into any good store that currently carries Pentax, Canon, Nikon, Sony and ask them if a K5 FF 24MP at $2000 would be a big hit or not. Even the Canon fanboys in the store will admit it would sell (I tried this over beer with a couple of Vistek guys the other week - this is Canada's biggest pro shop BTW.)
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