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02-21-2012, 01:27 AM   #106
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
So it was a complete waste of time for everyone involved?
Except as a PR exercise for Pentax, and a bonus for Adam and this forum to be seen to be noticed By Pentax Japan, and reading other posters comments (I'm waiting to read the transcript, not enough cap for the video), it doesn't seem as if anything major or of much importance was announced.

QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
I'll say it again: this year is the 60th anniversary of the first japanese SLR, the Asahiflex. 60 = LX in Roman numbers. They (i.e. Marc Newson) already brought back the old "K" letter styling in the K-01, and I have the feeling the LX-D will come at Photokina, the 18th of September of this year... Mark my words. And I also have the feeling they will do something special with the viewfinder (anyone owning a Pentax LX knows what I'm hinting at). Pentax would be dumb to let that opportunity pass by...
I agree that something like this is possible, that is why I agree with

QuoteOriginally posted by citrontokyo Quote
Companies don't let their secrets out of the bag on other people's schedules or demands
.

Something will come from Pentax and they will announce it when they are good and ready, not because a lot of very impatient Pentaxforum users have ants in their pants about the matter.

02-21-2012, 01:47 AM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
Opportunities passed by... Ford never took my suggestion about the 2000 model year 'millenium falcon'.
. thanks.. that was hilarious!
02-21-2012, 01:51 AM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
So it was a complete waste of time for everyone involved?

I've certainly missed an important question, easy to answer: apparently the 560mm is a DA lens because it's optimized for APS-C (Kawauchi-san himself told that in the interview). Why the odd focal length and what will be its strong points when compared to the competition?

And regarding FF: Kawauchi-san knows very well that many experienced users are wanting a Pentax FF. He did not laugh because he found that question funny, but because I'm sure that's one of the questions he gets often. After watching the interview I strongly felt that a) they are definitely working on a FF model and b) they are also definitely working on several FF lenses. They're only waiting for the right sensor to come along. Or they have already selected the right sensor, but they're still tweaking the camera.

I'll say it again: this year is the 60th anniversary of the first japanese SLR, the Asahiflex. 60 = LX in Roman numbers. They (i.e. Marc Newson) already brought back the old "K" letter styling in the K-01, and I have the feeling the LX-D will come at Photokina, the 18th of September of this year... Mark my words. And I also have the feeling they will do something special with the viewfinder (anyone owning a Pentax LX knows what I'm hinting at). Pentax would be dumb to let that opportunity pass by...
I can hardly remember my MX or LX.. I sold them 28 years ago to buy a Roland Synth. Needless to say I got ripped off in both directions and wish I'd never done it. I was a poor artist at the time and couldn't afford to continue wasting film.. pity it wasn't digital as I'd still have it.

That's me on the far right with my LX, 28mm Shift, motor drive and sports VF. 1984 I think.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/188206_1626386071772_16..._6196151_n.jpg
02-21-2012, 01:59 AM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
I can hardly remember my MX or LX.. I sold them 28 years ago to buy a Roland Synth. Needless to say I got ripped off in both directions and wish I'd never done it. I was a poor artist at the time and couldn't afford to continue wasting film.. pity it wasn't digital as I'd still have it.

That's me on the far right with my LX, 28mm Shift, motor drive and sports VF. 1984 I think.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/188206_1626386071772_16..._6196151_n.jpg
Those were the times! That setup is worth quite a few $$$ right now. A pity indeed, but I don't have my LX either (sold it off way too cheap also because I wanted that *ist DS back in 2004).

02-21-2012, 02:29 AM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
Those were the times! That setup is worth quite a few $$$ right now. A pity indeed, but I don't have my LX either (sold it off way too cheap also because I wanted that *ist DS back in 2004).
My old system:

LX with sports finder + 5fps MD + some screens
MX + winder
K lenses:
15 F/3.5
17mm Fish-eye
28mm Shift
50mm standard
Vivitar Series1 90-180 flat field zoom
300mm F4
Pentax Spot Meter

Probably a few more things too.. it was a long time ago.

If I told you what I sold them for I'd never live it down.. poverty makes you desperate to distraction though.

Last edited by bossa; 02-21-2012 at 02:34 AM.
02-21-2012, 03:04 AM - 2 Likes   #111
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Thanks for the interview to all involved, very much appreciated.

But, again. How come that people tend to build up such high hopes to just to publicly let them crush. Neither the hopes are based on solid knowledge, nor the disappointment seems to be. I'm afraid it's inherent in the "system"...

When Olympus tried to bring out a new DSLR-system wich promised compact rugged weather sealed ergonomic and functional bodies with good lenses a lot of people thought it might be a good idea. It really had some good cams and as far as the top models are concerned, even the viewfinders didn't leave anything to be desired. But it must be considered to be dead now. CaNiSo tried to bring out APS-C models, which were either entrance level or high class, but not a dedicated lens system, you just had to use large, heavy, expensive but very capable FF lenses with the upper-class APS-C bodys.

Pentax is the only one with a broad dedicated APS-C lens lineup, be it WR, or compact and limited finish, and they have a body, which seems to be one of the class leaders in IQ and ergonomics.

There was a market for the Olympus DSLR-system as there is one for the CaNiSo, it is still the most sold part of the market, FF being at around 2%. IF other manufacturers move out of this sensor size (maybe Falk is right) like Sony (with SLT), Nikon (who wants to bring people to buy next level at 3000€), or Canon (why buy expensive APS-C if you have to buy FF lenses), THEN I still don't see the necissity for Pentax to abandon APS-C too. On the contrary, people who are happy with their former systems from a price-benefit perspective might be a large target market for a company who is adressing this need with a confidable system, that covers this (new to be) niche, which would fit perfectly into the Pentax-philosophy.

Crying out loud for this FF won't bring you any further to the Pentax FF, it will just make it harder for Pentax to build and hold the confidence of users in this system, that still is one of the best in it's field. You might get the feeling that you are not heard and your requests are laughed about, but, sorry, how should a company react, that wants to keep costumers confidence in their existing system, which is far from being uncapable or outdated, the opposite is true.

Ok, I would also look up, if Pentax woul bring something special in the FF area. But the answers in this interview are the most I can see them to give away, without snubbing people who actually are happy with a nice APS-C system and still want to invest into new lenses, which will be produced also in future, see the roadmap. If they bring a niche product, like a grandson of the modular LX with the K-5 and Ricoh GX as parents, that would be great!

But it won't make a complete turn from APS-C to FF, that would not make any sense, not for Pentax, they would definitely give up a niche. It's mainstream now, and might get a niche, but not so much because of costumer demand, but because companies want to sell next more expensive class, or cheaper to produce mirrorless. Establishing a solid system for all those, that are happy now but won't get served by the other companies might be not such a bad idea IMHO.

So, maybe one might give them some scope, before yelling out his disappointment, about them not being to definit in such interviews?
02-21-2012, 03:22 AM   #112
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Why bother making the FA Limiteds if you aren't prepared to back them up with a camera? If it's good enough to make the lenses it's good enough to make the camera. The apologists on this forum are very good at explaining why things shall NOT be so but I prefer to be more positive than that.
02-21-2012, 03:42 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by bossa Quote
Why bother making the FA Limiteds if you aren't prepared to back them up with a camera? If it's good enough to make the lenses it's good enough to make the camera. The apologists on this forum are very good at explaining why things shall NOT be so but I prefer to be more positive than that.
There is a camera for FA Limiteds, the Mz-3, you got them as a kit in 35mm film days. They are sold, because they sell, and they are great lenses. But what would you wish the camera for them might be: a nice retro finished limited FF dSLR, like the proposed LX-descendant, or a new FF derivate of the Nikon D800?

That's what I would see as the main question: the one could bring a solution to your FA-Limited desideratum, which could just live perfectly on it's own beside a full featured APS-C system, the other one would need the complete build of a new system with some paradigm shifts in Pentax philosophy.

I am not apologising anything, just wondering and trying to clarify this muddy FF-wishlist, the reasoning here often is way to emotional, for my taste.

Best regards

02-21-2012, 04:07 AM - 1 Like   #114
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I'm not sure the FF wish list is all too emotive to be objective. Long term Pentaxians know what the brand stands for and what kind of FF model will make heads turn all over the photographic world. Pentax themselves know this and have focused some attention to developing their unique FF prototype based on the brand's signature characteristics: small, lightweight, durable, long-lasting, weather-sealed. This is neither far-fetched nor unreasonable to expect in a Pentax FF model. And as such we can consider those permutations of options in our own minds that meet those core characteristics.

Last edited by Ash; 02-21-2012 at 04:16 AM.
02-21-2012, 05:35 AM   #115
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Did anyone really expect any earth shattering revelations in the interview.

Get real, we are, in comparison to the Japanese forums, and the market in general, a tiny little group of enthusiastic Pentax supporters.

If you want to know in which the direction the camera industry is heading, have a look at these stats, and in particular what happened in the last quarter of last year.

Mirrorless Camera Sales Increase Worldwide, Make Up Nearly Half of Sales in Japan

PRIC have no plans to appease about .0001% of it's potential market by releasing a conventional FF DSLR camera. Ricoh is in the business of earning money for it's shareholders and therefore it's production and marketing strategy's will be directed toward the big end of the market. And yes folks, that is mirrorless, in all it's present and future incarnations.

I think the K-01 could be a real winner for Pentax. It looks like a 'proper camera' and not a blown up credit card that gets lost in your hands, and can utilise a huge range of legacy glass. It's not for me because I'm old school and insist on an OVF, but I'm tipping that in a few years time, EVF's will be all the rage. I will probably insist on one.

Personally, I'm loving my new K5. My 15 Ltd, 40 Ltd, M50 f1.7, DA*300, Siggy 105 Macro and 70-200 f2.8 all seem to have a new lease of life on it.

For me, and fellow birders and wild-lifers, the 560mm will fill a huge gap in our lens line-up. And I'm bloody sure it will not be a 'stocking stuffer'.

My gut feeling is that Ricoh acquired Pentax to add some 'olde worlde' credibility to their brand name.

GO RICOH !!!!!!

I'm also a fan of the images produced by the D700, but I'm also positive that when I learn how to get the best from my new K5, I'll lose my Nikon FF envy.

Last edited by trublubiker; 02-21-2012 at 05:38 AM. Reason: Spelling
02-21-2012, 05:48 AM   #116
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One thing that strucked me in the interview:

* mirrorless FF was strongly denied
* FF Dslr was slightly downplayed but pretty much dicussed (we'd need lenses, do it the way others don't etc.).

Seems to me it is coming, not in a week, but coming. Problem is most likely securing the sensor and designing/producing the lenses.
02-21-2012, 05:49 AM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by MMVIII Quote
There is a camera for FA Limiteds, the Mz-3, you got them as a kit in 35mm film days. They are sold, because they sell, and they are great lenses. But what would you wish the camera for them might be: a nice retro finished limited FF dSLR, like the proposed LX-descendant, or a new FF derivate of the Nikon D800?

That's what I would see as the main question: the one could bring a solution to your FA-Limited desideratum, which could just live perfectly on it's own beside a full featured APS-C system, the other one would need the complete build of a new system with some paradigm shifts in Pentax philosophy.

I am not apologising anything, just wondering and trying to clarify this muddy FF-wishlist, the reasoning here often is way to emotional, for my taste.

Best regards
I'm not suggesting that a FF is a desire or a necessity but merely point out it just seems incongruous to excuse the existence of production maintenance of the LTD lenses (even though I own two of them) and offer excuses as to the reason the camera cannot exist. I cannot believe that they can't just 'whip out' a camera considering they buy the components and fabricate just the chassis. With all of the computer aided tools available these days they've got to have a design ready to go..if they don't, then they really shouldn't be in the game. But seeing the business model is more than that and requires distribution/support it's obviously more complex than I have stated.
Maybe those hoping for a Pentax FF should be looking to Ricoh for a full frame K-mount sensor module for a GXR? Seems an odd bedfellow though.
02-21-2012, 05:51 AM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ash Quote
Long term Pentaxians know what the brand stands for and what kind of FF model will make heads turn all over the photographic world. Pentax themselves know this and have focused some attention to developing their unique FF prototype...
That may be true. But each new exciting FF model from another brand erodes the camp of Pentaxians. Here in Munich, when I joined this forum, I was surrounded by happy Pentaxians (the K10D was young). I am still surrounded by them, but a large fraction of them moved on, either mirrorless or full frame, or both. The number of Pentaxians left (by Pentaxian I mean brand loyal long term customers with a selection of glass) has become small in comparison.

It is this remaining group which Kawauchi addressed when answering the notorious FF question. At a moment when the D800 is going to erode most of what remains from the Pentaxian group which has enough cash to buy $2000+ cameras.

And his answer will actually help this erosion rather then slow it down. Even if Pentax eventually releases their flavour of FF, it may simply be too late because there are no potential customers left. Most of them are already gone by now anyway. What remains are rich Pentaxians who can run two or more systems; or Pentaxians saving up because a K-5 fulfills all their needs now.

If Pentax works at their flavour of FF indeed, he would have had to send a different signal to us Pentaxians. He would need to prepare the market with a certain level of anticipation.

That's my main critics with Kawauchi. That he does not seem to resense our dilemma.
02-21-2012, 06:12 AM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote

If Pentax works at their flavour of FF indeed, he would have had to send a different signal to us Pentaxians. He would need to prepare the market with a certain level of anticipation.

That's my main critics with Kawauchi. That he does not seem to resense our dilemma.

No signals. No FF till 2014.
02-21-2012, 06:18 AM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
That may be true. But each new exciting FF model from another brand erodes the camp of Pentaxians. Here in Munich, when I joined this forum, I was surrounded by happy Pentaxians (the K10D was young). I am still surrounded by them, but a large fraction of them moved on, either mirrorless or full frame, or both. The number of Pentaxians left (by Pentaxian I mean brand loyal long term customers with a selection of glass) has become small in comparison.

It is this remaining group which Kawauchi addressed when answering the notorious FF question. At a moment when the D800 is going to erode most of what remains from the Pentaxian group which has enough cash to buy $2000+ cameras.

And his answer will actually help this erosion rather then slow it down. Even if Pentax eventually releases their flavour of FF, it may simply be too late because there are no potential customers left. Most of them are already gone by now anyway. What remains are rich Pentaxians who can run two or more systems; or Pentaxians saving up because a K-5 fulfills all their needs now.

If Pentax works at their flavour of FF indeed, he would have had to send a different signal to us Pentaxians. He would need to prepare the market with a certain level of anticipation.

That's my main critics with Kawauchi. That he does not seem to resense our dilemma.
Well said! If the market is already saturated then there's no point in making the product and no point in hanging around if that's what you really want. This inability of Pentax to 'catch the wave' would appear to be the reason they're in their current predicament and It seems they haven't really learned a thing. I was looking for reasons to keep my K5's and lenses but I might just go where the surf's up and have some fun.

PS: They have to be revolutionary, not just a curiosity, if they want success. A square sensor with a modular camera body would seem a way of differentiating them.. or a K-5 sized FF would do the trick as well.
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