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02-21-2012, 06:25 AM   #121
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Actually I think they pretty much knew what to do but could not. Thank Hoya.
As for pre-Hoya era, it wasn't rosy either. Cameras were more a hobby of the family than anything else.

02-21-2012, 06:53 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
At a moment when the D800 is going to erode most of what remains from the Pentaxian group which has enough cash to buy $2000+ cameras.
I think this statement exposes the real issue. There are simply not enough of us to justify the cost of a FF Pentax body.

We already know from BCN that FF is 1.8% of all DSLR sales a year of so ago, and I don't think it has changed that much today. Canon and Nikon sell enough DLSRs to justify a model that will only sell 1.8% of that category. Pentax does not.

Every camera brand produces one line to justify the brand to the professional market....Sony, Canon and Nikon have FF, Pentax has the 635d, so I don't see the need for Pentax to release FF to round out their product line.

Pentax exists to make money. While I would love to see FF, I can't for the life of me see Pentax releasing a camera body that would gut the profit margin of the company.
02-21-2012, 07:06 AM   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by SteveM Quote
I think this statement exposes the real issue. There are simply not enough of us to justify the cost of a FF Pentax body.

We already know from BCN that FF is 1.8% of all DSLR sales a year of so ago, and I don't think it has changed that much today. .
~ 7% of all DSLR sales in the world...rather good, to say honest, in money equivalent
02-21-2012, 07:46 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by SteveM Quote
I can't for the life of me see Pentax releasing a camera body that would gut the profit margin of the company.
FF bodies and the lenses that usually sell with them have higher margins than what sells in the aps-c tiers. D800 at $3000 is nothing close to a loss-leader, as some people try to claim (much to Nikon's delight - that myth helps them ) and makes a higher profit per unit at that price than the $1000 D7000. When the D700 was sold at $2300 by retailers it was still making those retailers money - showing you that what they paid wholesale to Nikon is even lower than that.

A FF line would be profitable - bodies alone, but more importantly would bolster high-margin K-mount lens sales.

02-21-2012, 08:16 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
If Pentax works at their flavour of FF indeed, he would have had to send a different signal to us Pentaxians. He would need to prepare the market with a certain level of anticipation. That's my main critics with Kawauchi. That he does not seem to resense our dilemma.
This is a very interesting point. Pentax has always been a difficult company to understand, they were first to include a built-in meter, but late to adopt the bayonet mount. They produced some impressive film cameras that entirely missed the mark (i.e. the LX). They were late to the digital age, but the first to produce a mirrorless camera that uses existing lenses. There's little things too like they shield their PC sockets against voltages that would fry a Canon or Nikon, but then never advertise the fact. They come up with ingenious new uses for existing technology like the astro tracer function of the GPS unit which takes advantage of the sensor based shake reduction to compensate for the earth's rotation. And then there's the Q...

How can one camera company be so spot-on one on some issues, and so far off on others? I am beginning to form a theory about that. Within Pentax HQ there are many different minds at work charting the direction of the company. There are some forward thinking individuals, and some conservative individuals. Some days one group wins the argument, some days the other, and thus is the course of the company plotted. But in all the debates since the first digital full frame hit the market, there is one thing that doesn't get factored in to the equation (or at least given the weight it should) and that is the cost of inaction. You can tell they have been considering it all along with the *ISTd's full frame mirror box, and the vaporware K-1. So maybe it would have cost the company too much money to release those cameras at the time, but by not releasing them they are slowly losing their user base. At some point they just need to cowboy up, and release something, because once they do they can stop factoring the slow, steady cost of inaction into the discussion. It's like a patient bleeding out on an operating table, you can keep transfusing blood, but at some point you have to stop the bleeding.
02-21-2012, 08:37 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Asahiflex Quote
After watching the interview I strongly felt that a) they are definitely working on a FF model and b) they are also definitely working on several FF lenses. They're only waiting for the right sensor to come along. Or they have already selected the right sensor, but they're still tweaking the camera.

I'll say it again: this year is the 60th anniversary of the first japanese SLR, the Asahiflex. 60 = LX in Roman numbers. They (i.e. Marc Newson) already brought back the old "K" letter styling in the K-01, and I have the feeling the LX-D will come at Photokina, the 18th of September of this year... Mark my words. And I also have the feeling they will do something special with the viewfinder (anyone owning a Pentax LX knows what I'm hinting at). Pentax would be dumb to let that opportunity pass by...
This post marked to my User CP.

I think you and Bossa are very close - VERY close. I believe there will be a targeted professional release early next year, perhaps announced later this year.

Ricoh wants to compete with Canon (Nikon is another story altogether). Ricoh can implement a 20 year business plan, this being the first step. Ricoh did not spend EUR$78 million to let the brand wither and die. They're not openly stating lens designer hires to keep us happy.

Just feelings on my part, but I think I am right.

Be of good cheer, Pentaxians, Ricoh has a plan and you will be happy!

Last edited by monochrome; 02-21-2012 at 10:03 AM.
02-21-2012, 10:27 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by causey Quote
The most ardent FF hopefuls are the easiest to get disillusioned...
But the Pentax president didn't deny the possibility of a future FF camera. He said Pentax continually considers it! And he went on along the lines of "if a FF is going to be developed, it will have to...," which is very much compatible with the possibility of it's being developed now. There's no clear indicator for or against the development of a Pentax FF in this interview--and yet nobody could have extracted more info from a Japanese guy. The Japanese are known to be very evasive if pushed to reveal info.

I think a Pentax FF will show up at some point, but for me a FF isn't essential. I'd like to have one, though. On the other hand, a VF is essential, so I'm glad he believes DSLR's will still dominate the market (for a while), I'm not very happy concerning their decision not to come up with an EVF for the K-0x series. They apparently take the K-01 to be a complement to the Pentax dslr line rather than an independent project: "since the K-01 uses K mount lenses, a VF would be meaningless." Meaningless, because we already have cameras with optical VF, and the K-01 is something different.
Given the way his body language changed and how he started smiling and laughing, it seemed more to me like he knows something he can't talk about, combined with the we think about it daily and no mirrorless but unique, and the roadmap can have additions etc leads me to believe they do in fact have something well into development, I would not be surprised to see a photokina announcement
If it happens great, if it takes another year well there are still going to be some nice cameras coming and FF adds very little to what you can do (better OVF, narrower DOF, maybe a stop of iso and possibly more resolution but that is sensor dependent since there is the 24mp apsc coming as well. I'm pretty certain I can hold off for one, but if I needed one for a job i likely would already have gone to canikon, and just kept the Pentax for my personal walkabout shooter (having shot FF I have little desire to lug the weight of a FF kit all the time)
02-21-2012, 10:49 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by SteveM Quote
I think this statement exposes the real issue. There are simply not enough of us to justify the cost of a FF Pentax body.

We already know from BCN that FF is 1.8% of all DSLR sales a year of so ago, and I don't think it has changed that much today. Canon and Nikon sell enough DLSRs to justify a model that will only sell 1.8% of that category. Pentax does not.

Every camera brand produces one line to justify the brand to the professional market....Sony, Canon and Nikon have FF, Pentax has the 635d, so I don't see the need for Pentax to release FF to round out their product line.

Pentax exists to make money. While I would love to see FF, I can't for the life of me see Pentax releasing a camera body that would gut the profit margin of the company.
BCN only represents Japan where smaller cameras are preferred. In North America and Europe I think the bigger DSLRs do a much better business. The rumor is Nikon expects to produce 30,000 D800s per month. That is more than enough to be profitable.

02-21-2012, 10:56 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Given the way his body language changed and how he started smiling and laughing, it seemed more to me like he knows something he can't talk about, combined with the we think about it daily and no mirrorless but unique, and the roadmap can have additions etc leads me to believe they do in fact have something well into development, I would not be surprised to see a photokina announcement
Asahiflex made an interesting observation on the other thread. 2013 marks the 60th anniversary of the Asahiflex, a breakthrough camera. LX is, as we know from film days, Roman Numerals for 60. He hints about viewfinder and suggests anyone who has owned an LX think about that. Pentax must be different - it is their culture. They weather-seal, make durable cameras with excellent IQ and great ergonomics - and smaller.

I just have a sense Ricoh is planning something big. I don't know anything, but these feelings have in the past been pretty good. For weeks I've tagged most of my posts with the "Be of good cheer, Pentaxians." line seen in my sig.

So . . .

2013. K-5 BODY, FF or unique sensor, like square. K-mount. Professional quality.

lLX-D. Interchangeable VIEWFINDERS. Split-image focusing screen native - Pentax-made interchangeable screens (The K-5 Silver Ltd. Edition screen is a hint).

P.S. - I have an FA-1 and an FB-1 / FC-1 Sports Finder. The sports finder is the only VF I have on any camera that I can use with glasses. It is like looking in the Living Room window.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-21-2012 at 12:08 PM.
02-21-2012, 11:02 AM   #130
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Well done Adam and crew for getting this interview!

All I have to add is that we should all remember that Pentax is the company that loosed the Auto 110, colored K-xes, the Q, and now the K-01 upon the world. Being different and distinctive is in their genes. I'm looking forward to the ride...
02-21-2012, 11:31 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Well done Adam and crew for getting this interview!

All I have to add is that we should all remember that Pentax is the company that loosed the Auto 110, colored K-xes, the Q, and now the K-01 upon the world. Being different and distinctive is in their genes. I'm looking forward to the ride...

It is shaping up to be a very interesting ride. So far after the K-5 Pentax hasn't came out with a camera that I want to purchase. The Q is a very cute camera. A friend owns one and I have handled it a few times. The controls are a little cramp and the image quality is too much l.ike a p&s camera. Maybe a version 2 with a slightly bigger sensor will get me to buy one. The K-01 just seems like more like an entry level (K-r) camera without a viewfinder. The Q and the K-01 just missed the niche that I am interested in. Both seem to be going after the fashion/hipster niche.

A full frame would be nice. An upgrade more pro-level K-5 will be nice. Luckily I have two K-5's and a K-7 so I really can wait until Pentax releases a camera that is interesting enough for me to buy.
02-21-2012, 11:57 AM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Asahiflex made an interesting observation on the other thread. 2013 marks the 60th anniversary of the Asahiflex, a breakthrough camera. LX is, as we know from film days, Roman Numerals for 60. He hints about viewfinder and suggests anyone who has owned an LX think about that. Pentax must be different - it is their culture. They weather-seal, make durable cameras with excellent IQ and great ergonomics - and smaller.

I just have a sense Ricoh is planning something big. I don't know anything, but these feelings have in the past been pretty good. For weeks I've tagged most of my posts with the "Be of good cheer, Pentaxians." line seen in my sig.

So . . .

2013. K-5 BODY, FF or unique sensor, like square. K-mount. Professional quality.

lLX-D. Interchangeable VIEWFINDERS. Split-image focusing screen native - Pentax-made interchangeable screens (The K-5 Silver Ltd. Edition screen is a hint).

P.S. - I have an FA-1 and an FB-1 / FC-1 Sports Finder. The sports finder is the only VF I have on any camera that I can use with glasses. It is l;ike looking in the Living Room window.
I've been speculating about digital lx options as well. it could be done as a mirrorless or as a true SLR. One thing is certain i can't see the K-01 being the way Pentax decides to celebrate 60 years Pentax SLR. Photokina should be very interesting (and thank god that Ricoh owns them for the 60th anniversary - Imagine a Hoya special edition - a Q with Swarovski crystals for the diamonds aimed straight at the Paris Hilton wanna-be
02-21-2012, 12:14 PM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
I've been speculating about digital lx options as well. it could be done as a mirrorless
interview said not.
QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
or as a true SLR. One thing is certain i can't see the K-01 being the way Pentax decides to celebrate 60 years Pentax SLR. Photokina should be very interesting (and thank god that Ricoh owns them for the 60th anniversary - Imagine a Hoya special edition - a Q with Swarovski crystals for the diamonds aimed straight at the Paris Hilton wanna-be
In many ways Hoya gets a bad rap. They did do the K-7, K-5 and 645D. It was just the final year, when their revenue was declining (partially due to the tsunami) that they really tightened the screws.


I just have a sense Ricoh is lining up a "Shock and Awe" style introduction that, coming from Pentax, will be entirely out of character in its scope and scale.

Look at what has been released this year alone (7 weeks in). Imagine that pace increasing and continuing for several years.
I think their first ILC (Q) and first MILC (K-01) are placeholders. The upgrades should be much more complete cameras.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-21-2012 at 12:26 PM.
02-21-2012, 12:25 PM   #134
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I just have to say, even that it don't weight much at here...or there, about that good kind a laughter - as Eddie said before and others too - at question for FF was something that I could think he might have wanted to say something else, like 'I KNOW YEA, WELL WE HAVE A GREAT IDEA FOR THAT!'. i don't care so much for FF, mostly cause I cannot afford one. BUT I'm really exited for K-01 and some new lenses coming later. Can't really tell what else is lurking around corner. ANYWAY, about K-01 A lot of people whined about Q it has small sensor, someone should make bigger, and better video possibilities(that rant has been going on like for ever...) now they made one...Well it is ugly. It is not, it works as Many can see from Singapore group thread. Magnificent. With or with out FF!

Well that's it. BTW I'd love to see LX-D.
02-21-2012, 12:29 PM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
interview said not.

OVF's specially designed for applications.



I just have a sense Ricoh is lining up a "Shock and Awe" style system introduction followed by repetitive line additions, products, upgrades to everything that, coming from Pentax, will be entirely out of character. As if we would get a K10D every 6 months instead of every 6 years. Look at what has been released this year alone (7 weeks in):
  • WG-2 w/ and w/o GPS
  • Q, APSc and 645 lenses
    • Roadmap(s)
  • K-01
From all 4 lines.
a Shock and Awe campaign is what is needed too. after the Hoya years if we got 4 cameras in a year it would be shock and awe. I think we could easily see 8-10 this year including the p/s camera line (not including the Ricoh line either) - WG-2 (2 version) K-01, Kr replacement, step from KR, K5 replacement and step from K5 (apsc) FF, and Q2 adds up to 9 so even if there is no other P/S aside from the WG-2 you are there, I imagine another 6 or so from ricoh lineup as well and next year a 645D upgrade

While I like 6x6 film, i'm not sure a square format will be on the books (36x36mm??? like the 4x4 tlr) it would kill grip sales no need to shoot portrait or landscape , but the Idea would definitely fit with unique (custom sensor would cost a bomb though)
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