K-r successor: K30

Blue · 05-19-2012, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by eddie1960

as a separate product category (though effectively it is a DSLR but MF is a different game), just like now. P&S the Q and K-01 are also separate categories also.

The k-01 is a different category, BUT #1 it is aps-c, and #2 it takes k-mount lenses without the need for adapters and maintains af in af lenses. It is still part of the k-mount system.

rawr · 05-19-2012, 09:30 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

They won't immediately cover ALL categories of professional use

Whatever they do, they should make Pentax attractive to wedding photogs again. That's such a huge business. In the old days I saw pro wedding photogs using Pentax 67s, 645s, LXs, MX's, P30's etc, but almost all universally dropped Pentax once digital came. They could be won back with a Pentax FF with improved AF, improved flash system, great high-ISO, and some new glass like a fast 24-70. And something cheaper than the 645D

ENicolas · 05-21-2012, 12:09 PM

The K-01 is a designer camera! That means you aren't actually supposed to take pictures with it!

jogiba · 05-21-2012, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by ENicolas

The K-01 is a designer camera! That means you aren't actually supposed to take pictures with it!

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

Ryan Trevisol · 05-21-2012, 12:20 PM

Agreed about wedding photogs, but since those pros are now heavily invested into not only glass but lighting for Canon or Nikon, Pentax would have to do something unique with FF to entice them to switch systems, and not something trivial like making their TTL cross-compatible with other systems, though that would be nice. They'd need something that Canikon dont' offer, which is hard to do when they've both been in the FF space for a while.

Pentax has already said that if they did FF it wouldn't be a "me too" type of camera. Of course that was before Ricoh IIRC, so those bets might be off.

ElJamoquio · 05-21-2012, 12:38 PM

My recollection was that the 'we won't do a me too' camera was after Ricoh. I am completely un-confident with that, though.

In either case, though... what company would SAY that they're going to do a me-too camera?

**monochrome** · 05-21-2012, 12:46 PM

Originally posted by ElJamoquio

My recollection was that the 'we won't do a me too' camera was after Ricoh. I am completely un-confident with that, though.

We need to think about a FF camera as more than just a stand-alone camera body and stand-alone economics.

Any FF camera Pentax released would have some unique feature to add utility and draw attention in the FF marketplace. Additionally, such a camera would serve as a development platform for technology to upscale to the 645 line and downscale to the APS line (as was done with the K-7 electronics in the 645D). Thus development costs are spread over higher volumes and longer time periods (note the 16Mp Sony sensor, processing algorithms and Prime M imaging engine are now released in the mid-market K30 and (What?) market K-01).

One suggestion of a unique and useful feature for professionals is an interchangeable viewfinder such as was available on the LX. Another is an extension of the Ricoh Mountor technology, so that (in effect) the sensor is upgradeable without throwing out all the rest of the body.

Disucss, please!

ElJamoquio · 05-21-2012, 12:56 PM

I think the processing chips, etc., will need to come in a bundle with the sensor (we always want the fastest processing, best AF, etc)... i.e. you need a complete module, not just a sensor. So you're back to a Ricoh camera.

I don't have a problem with keeping the same ergonomics and controls - in fact if I could freeze the external design of the k-5 I probably would - but the downside to that modularity is increased initial cost, weight, and volume, which would mean my k-5 would have to be larger.

I agree with you that introducing a FF will help Pentax as a brand. In fact, contrary to what others have said, Canon recently emphasized that much of their camera profit was going to come from higher-end cameras.

In terms of interchangeable viewfinders... that might be worth it now that EVF's are coming closer to being viable. For me it'd come down to the same tradeoff - cost, weight, and volume of this interchange-ability. FWIW I was completely against EVF's until I saw focus peaking; now I'm a convert. For general use, though, EVF is still not up to par, and I'd much rather have an OVF if I'm forced to decide between the two.

Ryan Trevisol · 05-21-2012, 01:19 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

One suggestion of a unique and useful feature for professionals is an interchangeable viewfinder such as was available on the LX.

Disucss, please!

This would be great if it could be done while maintaining WR. In fact, making the digital equivalent of an LX would be a great idea. Perhaps a focus on manual shooting, or something revolutionary with low-light metering.

D0n · 05-21-2012, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Anvh

I actually like the idea of the AA adapter, makes switching batteries easier if you've 2 adapters.

or multiple bodies using the same adaptor... like the old vivitar 283/285 battery clips.... very convienient actually....

Anvh · 05-21-2012, 07:44 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

Pentax will compete full-pro, including building out (over time) pro-level service and distribution.

They won't immediately cover ALL categories of professional use (i.e. perhaps won't immediately compete in sports/action and/or reportage) but could enter ceremonial, landscape (with dSLR) and studio (with 645D line).

This isn't a single-camera release with a few ageing lenses. It is a long-term commitment and a systematic process of investments and releases to develop a competitive professional alternative that has the Pentax DNA, smaller, rugged, ergonomic intelligence, optics, WS, IBIS, DIFFERENT.

I'm not talking about the future, i'm talking about the start.

If they want to compete with FF in some of the pro segments they simply need to launch the camera with some good basic lenses.
Something like 28-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 would already be enough as a good launch start and with a roadmap for the other lenses.

Like i said, nobody in their right minds will buy Pentax FF if they dont have the lenses for it or can not buy the basic of quality lenses.

ps. 645D is actually more aimed at landscape shooters then any other MF camera, the weather sealing is an example of that.

**monochrome** · 05-21-2012, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by Anvh

I'm not talking about the future, i'm talking about the start.

I'm talking about next spring - with enough new FF lenses to encourage new buyers. That's what all those lens designers will have been doing for a year.

Anvh · 05-21-2012, 08:25 PM

Look at the lens roadmap, there are quite a few new lenses if you look at the Q, K and the 645 mount roadmaps.
Dont know how big the team is but i'm not convinced there is a "secret" developing going on for an FF.

I actually hope they put in a lot of effort in putting what they have now strongly in the market, that's far more important then any FF camera.
No matter how you look at it they are simply too late with their FF if they really want to compete with Nikon and Canon, they have a very big lead.

gazonk · 05-22-2012, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by Anvh

Look at the lens roadmap, there are quite a few new lenses if you look at the Q, K and the 645 mount roadmaps.
Dont know how big the team is but i'm not convinced there is a "secret" developing going on for an FF.

I'm still wondering if they will introduce a smaller and much more aggressively priced 645D mount body instead of a 24x36 camera. But I'm not sure how wise it is.

D0n · 05-22-2012, 02:18 AM

you know it is also possible that there is a mirror less evil 645-d coming... and if like the 4/3s system this one does reduce the flange distance, and use adaptors... if the sensor is similar in size tothe 645d and it also does video then a 35mm ff kmount adaptor should be easily do-able, and a 645 and 6x7 lens adaptors should also be doable...
just thinking it's possible... a k-01 on steriods... lol!

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05-19-2012, 09:27 AM	#616
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by eddie1960 as a separate product category (though effectively it is a DSLR but MF is a different game), just like now. P&S the Q and K-01 are also separate categories also. The k-01 is a different category, BUT #1 it is aps-c, and #2 it takes k-mount lenses without the need for adapters and maintains af in af lenses. It is still part of the k-mount system.

05-19-2012, 09:30 AM	#617
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Originally posted by monochrome They won't immediately cover ALL categories of professional use Whatever they do, they should make Pentax attractive to wedding photogs again. That's such a huge business. In the old days I saw pro wedding photogs using Pentax 67s, 645s, LXs, MX's, P30's etc, but almost all universally dropped Pentax once digital came. They could be won back with a Pentax FF with improved AF, improved flash system, great high-ISO, and some new glass like a fast 24-70. And something cheaper than the 645D

05-21-2012, 12:09 PM	#618
ENicolas Inactive Account Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Northern California Posts: 137	The K-01 is a designer camera! That means you aren't actually supposed to take pictures with it!

05-21-2012, 12:20 PM	#620
Ryan Trevisol Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: South Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 312	Agreed about wedding photogs, but since those pros are now heavily invested into not only glass but lighting for Canon or Nikon, Pentax would have to do something unique with FF to entice them to switch systems, and not something trivial like making their TTL cross-compatible with other systems, though that would be nice. They'd need something that Canikon dont' offer, which is hard to do when they've both been in the FF space for a while. Pentax has already said that if they did FF it wouldn't be a "me too" type of camera. Of course that was before Ricoh IIRC, so those bets might be off.

05-21-2012, 12:38 PM	#621
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	My recollection was that the 'we won't do a me too' camera was after Ricoh. I am completely un-confident with that, though. In either case, though... what company would SAY that they're going to do a me-too camera?

05-21-2012, 12:46 PM	#622
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by ElJamoquio My recollection was that the 'we won't do a me too' camera was after Ricoh. I am completely un-confident with that, though. We need to think about a FF camera as more than just a stand-alone camera body and stand-alone economics. Any FF camera Pentax released would have some unique feature to add utility and draw attention in the FF marketplace. Additionally, such a camera would serve as a development platform for technology to upscale to the 645 line and downscale to the APS line (as was done with the K-7 electronics in the 645D). Thus development costs are spread over higher volumes and longer time periods (note the 16Mp Sony sensor, processing algorithms and Prime M imaging engine are now released in the mid-market K30 and (What?) market K-01). One suggestion of a unique and useful feature for professionals is an interchangeable viewfinder such as was available on the LX. Another is an extension of the Ricoh Mountor technology, so that (in effect) the sensor is upgradeable without throwing out all the rest of the body. Disucss, please!

05-21-2012, 12:56 PM	#623
ElJamoquio Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4,873	I think the processing chips, etc., will need to come in a bundle with the sensor (we always want the fastest processing, best AF, etc)... i.e. you need a complete module, not just a sensor. So you're back to a Ricoh camera. I don't have a problem with keeping the same ergonomics and controls - in fact if I could freeze the external design of the k-5 I probably would - but the downside to that modularity is increased initial cost, weight, and volume, which would mean my k-5 would have to be larger. I agree with you that introducing a FF will help Pentax as a brand. In fact, contrary to what others have said, Canon recently emphasized that much of their camera profit was going to come from higher-end cameras. In terms of interchangeable viewfinders... that might be worth it now that EVF's are coming closer to being viable. For me it'd come down to the same tradeoff - cost, weight, and volume of this interchange-ability. FWIW I was completely against EVF's until I saw focus peaking; now I'm a convert. For general use, though, EVF is still not up to par, and I'd much rather have an OVF if I'm forced to decide between the two.

05-21-2012, 01:19 PM	#624
Ryan Trevisol Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: South Florida Photos: Gallery Posts: 312	Originally posted by monochrome One suggestion of a unique and useful feature for professionals is an interchangeable viewfinder such as was available on the LX. Disucss, please! This would be great if it could be done while maintaining WR. In fact, making the digital equivalent of an LX would be a great idea. Perhaps a focus on manual shooting, or something revolutionary with low-light metering.

05-21-2012, 02:22 PM	#625
D0n Banned Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 530	Originally posted by Anvh I actually like the idea of the AA adapter, makes switching batteries easier if you've 2 adapters. or multiple bodies using the same adaptor... like the old vivitar 283/285 battery clips.... very convienient actually....

05-21-2012, 07:44 PM	#626
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Originally posted by monochrome Pentax will compete full-pro, including building out (over time) pro-level service and distribution. They won't immediately cover ALL categories of professional use (i.e. perhaps won't immediately compete in sports/action and/or reportage) but could enter ceremonial, landscape (with dSLR) and studio (with 645D line). This isn't a single-camera release with a few ageing lenses. It is a long-term commitment and a systematic process of investments and releases to develop a competitive professional alternative that has the Pentax DNA, smaller, rugged, ergonomic intelligence, optics, WS, IBIS, DIFFERENT. I'm not talking about the future, i'm talking about the start. If they want to compete with FF in some of the pro segments they simply need to launch the camera with some good basic lenses. Something like 28-70 and 70-200 f/2.8 would already be enough as a good launch start and with a roadmap for the other lenses. Like i said, nobody in their right minds will buy Pentax FF if they dont have the lenses for it or can not buy the basic of quality lenses. ps. 645D is actually more aimed at landscape shooters then any other MF camera, the weather sealing is an example of that.

05-21-2012, 07:48 PM	#627
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by Anvh I'm not talking about the future, i'm talking about the start. I'm talking about next spring - with enough new FF lenses to encourage new buyers. That's what all those lens designers will have been doing for a year.

05-21-2012, 08:25 PM	#628
Anvh Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 4,616	Look at the lens roadmap, there are quite a few new lenses if you look at the Q, K and the 645 mount roadmaps. Dont know how big the team is but i'm not convinced there is a "secret" developing going on for an FF. I actually hope they put in a lot of effort in putting what they have now strongly in the market, that's far more important then any FF camera. No matter how you look at it they are simply too late with their FF if they really want to compete with Nikon and Canon, they have a very big lead.

05-22-2012, 02:02 AM	#629
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by Anvh Look at the lens roadmap, there are quite a few new lenses if you look at the Q, K and the 645 mount roadmaps. Dont know how big the team is but i'm not convinced there is a "secret" developing going on for an FF. I'm still wondering if they will introduce a smaller and much more aggressively priced 645D mount body instead of a 24x36 camera. But I'm not sure how wise it is.

05-22-2012, 02:18 AM	#630
D0n Banned Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 530	you know it is also possible that there is a mirror less evil 645-d coming... and if like the 4/3s system this one does reduce the flange distance, and use adaptors... if the sensor is similar in size tothe 645d and it also does video then a 35mm ff kmount adaptor should be easily do-able, and a 645 and 6x7 lens adaptors should also be doable... just thinking it's possible... a k-01 on steriods... lol!