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03-22-2012, 10:47 AM   #91
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Maybe they can name it the K-*!@#%, after the noises made by owners when they discover stains on their sensor, a missing lens-release button, front-focusing in low light, or bounce flash overexposure.

03-22-2012, 11:02 AM - 4 Likes   #92
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If you are under about age 50 in America you likely don't even have a father who would understand the negative connotation of a "camp" association. That isn't a criticism, just demographic reality. My 25 yo son once was addressed by a teacher (jokingly, he thought) as a Nazi. You cannot imagine how hard my wife and I had to work to assuage my son's shame that his teacher, who in his mind was an admired authority figure, would name him part of the worst possible group of humans in the history of humankind. (Yes, I know, it was just a Political party and almost all party members were innocent of crimes and hates).

My explanation to the young teacher, who really didn't understand what he had said that was so bad, was that he didn't know in advance whether my son's grandparents had died in a camp (they didn't), nor whether his grandfathers has committed their own "atrocities," - though, they believed, justified by being on the side of rightness - (they did), and they lived pretty screwed up lives thereafter. I'll never know what either of them actually did in the Third Army or 82nd - and that in itself says a lot.

I personally grew up in a community full of German and Russian war emigrees. All my friends' fathers served in Europe - it is part of who we are. I know people whose grandparents did die in the camps or who had their land and businesses stolen. I knew several Czech and Polish emigrees my father's age who got to England and flew with the RAF. I grew up hearing the stories - it is part of who I am.

Yes, the whole thing about KZ feels pretty irrational and unduly sensitive when viewed from the distance of time or geography - but - to those who have a more intimate contact with that particular horror, or to a culture that to this day lives in shame and guilt over it and swears to their very DNA that nothing like it will happen at their hands ever again, any reference to the concentration camps immediately evokes a very real response.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-22-2012 at 11:12 AM.
03-22-2012, 11:10 AM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
If you are under about age 50 in America you likely don't even have a father who would understand the negative connotation of a "camp" association. That isn't a criticism, just demographic reality. My 25 yo son once was addressed by a teacher (jokingly, he thought) as a Nazi. You cannot imagine how hard my wife and I had to work to assuage my son's shame that his teacher, who in his mind was an admired authority figure, would name him part of the worst possible group of humans in the history of humankind. (Yes, I know, it was just a Political party and almost all party members were innocent of crimes and hates).

My explanation to the young teacher, who really didn't understand what he had said that was so bad, was that he didn't know in advance whether my son's grandparents had died in a camp (they didn't), nor whether his grandfathers has committed their own "atrocities," (though, they believed, justified by being on the side of rightness) - they did, and lived pretty screwed up lives thereafter.

Yes, the whole thing about KZ feels pretty irrational and unduly sensitive when viewed from the distance of time or geography - but - to those who have a more intimate contact with that particular horror, or to a culture that to this day lives in shame and guilt over it and swears to their very DNA that nothing like it will happen at their hands ever again, any reference to teh concentration camps immediately evokes a very real response.
Hear, hear! Well said.
03-22-2012, 11:12 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
If you are under about age 50 in America you likely don't even have a father who would understand the negative connotation of a "camp" association. That isn't a criticism, just demographic reality. My 25 yo son once was addressed by a teacher (jokingly, he thought) as a Nazi. You cannot imagine how hard my wife and I had to work to assuage my son's shame that his teacher, who in his mind was an admired authority figure, would name him part of the worst possible group of humans in the history of humankind. (Yes, I know, it was just a Political party and almost all party members were innocent of crimes and hates).

My explanation to the young teacher, who really didn't understand what he had said that was so bad, was that he didn't know in advance whether my son's grandparents had died in a camp (they didn't), nor whether his grandfathers has committed their own "atrocities," (though, they believed, justified by being on the side of rightness) - they did, and lived pretty screwed up lives thereafter.

Yes, the whole thing about KZ feels pretty irrational and unduly sensitive when viewed from the distance of time or geography - but - to those who have a more intimate contact with that particular horror, or to a culture that to this day lives in shame and guilt over it and swears to their very DNA that nothing like it will happen at their hands ever again, any reference to teh concentration camps immediately evokes a very real response.
My very own grandfather was put to work until he couldn't anymore by the nazis in one of those camps. Luckily, he survived. But I still find it utter bullsh*t that people find the name "Pentax K-Z" offensive. It's really searching for a problem with 40x microscope. Friends of ours called their newborn daughter "Eva"... Should I now rant like an idiot because Hitler's wife was named Eva too? It's the same thing. Lets not bring this sort of hysterical sensitivity to Europe.

03-22-2012, 11:17 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
My very own grandfather was put to work until he couldn't anymore by the nazis in one of those camps. Luckily, he survived. But I still find it utter bullsh*t that people find the name "Pentax K-Z" offensive. It's really searching for a problem with 40x microscope. Friends of ours called their newborn daughter "Eva"... Should I now rant like an idiot because Hitler's wife was named Eva too? It's the same thing. Lets not bring this sort of hysterical sensitivity to Europe.
My friend, what you and I think - and I am with you in what we think (that some day we have to get beyond it, that the debt has been repaid) - from time to time should take an inferior position to what others think. This may be one of those times.
03-22-2012, 11:23 AM - 1 Like   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
If you are under about age 50 in America you likely don't even have a father who would understand the negative connotation of a "camp" association. That isn't a criticism, just demographic reality. My 25 yo son once was addressed by a teacher (jokingly, he thought) as a Nazi. You cannot imagine how hard my wife and I had to work to assuage my son's shame that his teacher, who in his mind was an admired authority figure, would name him part of the worst possible group of humans in the history of humankind. (Yes, I know, it was just a Political party and almost all party members were innocent of crimes and hates).

My explanation to the young teacher, who really didn't understand what he had said that was so bad, was that he didn't know in advance whether my son's grandparents had died in a camp (they didn't), nor whether his grandfathers has committed their own "atrocities," (though, they believed, justified by being on the side of rightness) - they did, and lived pretty screwed up lives thereafter.

Yes, the whole thing about KZ feels pretty irrational and unduly sensitive when viewed from the distance of time or geography - but - to those who have a more intimate contact with that particular horror, or to a culture that to this day lives in shame and guilt over it and swears to their very DNA that nothing like it will happen at their hands ever again, any reference to teh concentration camps immediately evokes a very real response.
Well said. A big part of the problem is now WW2 is dusty stuff from history texts. most people have no closer connection than grandparents or even great grandparents. WW1 is even more remote (the last living canadian to fight in WW1 died in Feb 2010 at 109)
So it is unlikely they will have heard first hand accounts like many of us will have (for instance My uncle went down on 3 different ships and trained people at Camp X, My father in law was in the British navy but ended the war in intelligence and was one of the first into the concentration camps - his stories were chilling)

When I was in retail we would honour the remembrance day silence but invariably someone would just keep yapping away (even though we broadcast it over the p.a and had in the range of 100-150 tvs tuned to the ceremony)

So yeah i completely think KZ would be an ignorant name for the camera (and in fact the concentration camps are so abhorrent I think the idea of using it anywhere in the world should be dissuaded. Certainly i would be ashamed to take one on vacation to Germany.

Lots of letter combinations can be dumb in some countries (as pointed out) but as far as I know this is the only one that references a Genocide
03-22-2012, 11:45 AM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
So it is unlikely they will have heard first hand accounts like many of us will have
So few of us do learn history or that of our families. My wife's "Uncle" Guy (great-something or other) was an American WWI fighter "Ace" who was shot down by von Richthofen. I could find someone for every war back to 1776. Somehow none of them is so evocative as WWII.

What is striking to me is that we blithely purchase Japanese cameras and cars, but we so openly vilify the Germans. Doesn't make a lot of sense.
03-22-2012, 11:48 AM   #98
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I perfeclty understand that people from outside Germany may not care a lot about this subject.

It's 2012. Right. Just one month ago, a man, who had survived Auschwitz (one of the most horrible concentration camps), delivered a speech in the German parliament, the Bundestag, where he reminds all Germans of what had happened during this horrible period and that they should never forget. So it's more than present here and not only on paper or in books. You still can talk to survivors face to face. My grandmother was sitting many nights as a kindergartener with lots of little children in a bunker in Nuremberg when Americans bombed this city (for obvious reasons). It takes me a 5 minutes walk to listen to what she has to say about this...


And this memorial was built in at the heart of Berlin (just 1 minute away from the Brandeburg Gate) just a few years ago, so in the year 20xx.
Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some of the people writing hear seem to be quite detached to the culture of Germany in 2012 (what I don't blame them for). But that's why they cannot understand how inappropriate a camera bearing the name k-z would be, at least here in Germany.

For those of you who are leaving in America or some other place on this planet it might be hard to understand but the past is still very present in peoples minds. However, this is why we were able to make it better after 1945.


Last edited by zeitlos; 03-22-2012 at 11:54 AM.
03-22-2012, 11:48 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
So few of us do learn history or that of our families. My wife's "Uncle" Guy (great-something or other) was an American WWI fighter "Ace" who was shot down by von Richthofen. I could find someone for every war back to 1776. Somehow none of them is so evocative as WWII.

What is striking to me is that we blithely purchase Japanese cameras and cars, but we so openly vilify the Germans. Doesn't make a lot of sense.
You should talk to China and Korea. It's the other way around there
03-22-2012, 12:00 PM   #100
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A little reminder to some. There's a company (now almost forgotten) in computer industry named VIA.
Years ago, VIA added its own chipset for AMD Athlon CPUs which was the first to support 133 SDRAM.
Named chosen was KZ133. Fuss in the forum later, it was renamed KX133.

I didn't know about the acronym at that time. But I understand the motives behind German people reactions.
I also understand why some might find that unimportant. But not respecting those german reactions is IMO stupidity not even counting the 'a**hole' name calling.

It is true that some day, we'll have to let things ago somewhat. But in these very days, this more important than ever. Being in the US or in the Europe, people really forget what happened. Tolerance is less and less part of our lives. And this stinks badly.
03-22-2012, 12:01 PM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
My friend, what you and I think - and I am with you in what we think (that some day we have to get beyond it, that the debt has been repaid) - from time to time should take an inferior position to what others think. This may be one of those times.
Bonjour,

Oradour-sur-Glane 10 June 1944

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oradour-sur-Glane

This site is only 60 miles from where I live, and I do not know if I will ever muster up enough courage to visit it ...

I have lived in France for over 16 years and the Nazi war crimes are still a very sensitive issue ... I have had friends and professional colleagues who are German and who live in France, and you cannot image how delicate this subject can be even today.

One of my former neighbors, who recently died, was deported to work in a Nazi labor camp ... he did not like to speak too much about it.

Add you will never see on a French license tag the alphabetical combination of "SS" in it ... enough said.

Bien respectueusement, John

Last edited by Jean Poitiers; 03-22-2012 at 12:14 PM.
03-22-2012, 12:03 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Friends of ours called their newborn daughter "Eva"... Should I now rant like an idiot because Hitler's wife was named Eva too? It's the same thing.
No, it's not. You don't seem to get that KZ is not just a random abbreviation, it's the proper noun for the death camps in German. Imagine somebody calling their daughter Death with middle name Horror, and you're closer.
03-22-2012, 12:05 PM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I didn't know about the acronym at that time. But I understand the motives behind German people reactions.
I also understand why some might find that unimportant. But not respecting those german reactions is IMO stupidity not even counting the '*******' name calling.
Thank you. I was really surprised that people started calling me names (just read the comments on pentaxforums Facebook posting about this topic) for being sensitive of my country's horrible past from 1933-1945 and for trying to take responsibility for what has happened the best way I can do as a German. But this includes also that other people respect me and our wounds from the past.
03-22-2012, 12:06 PM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by John Poitiers Quote
Bonjour,

K-k = "ka ka" = "merde" = sh*t ... in French!

Oh please Pentax, just make it a "K-(number)", like K-02, etc. (but not K-9, obviously) ...

Salut et bonne journée, John le Green Grenouille
John, I couldn't agree more ... being French myself.

You seem to be well on your way to total assimilation into the French culture !!

Cheers! et salut !

JP
03-22-2012, 12:11 PM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
No, it's not. You don't seem to get that KZ is not just a random abbreviation, it's the proper noun for the death camps in German.
"KZ" is yes... But "Pentax K-Z" isn't. That word "Pentax" in front of it, kinda says that it's not about a death camp.
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