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04-02-2012, 07:00 AM   #136
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Patience, Grasshoppers. Let things settle out for a day or two.

04-02-2012, 07:02 AM - 1 Like   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Patience, Grasshoppers. Let things settle out for a day or two.
Why? I love these threads. So many people to add to the ignore list.
04-02-2012, 07:04 AM   #138
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Value advantage disappearing

I have stuck with Pentax cameras because they have appeared to provide better value than the two big names. In general, you get more features for the money than is possible with a comparably priced big name competitor. I think this was even more true prior to the K-5. I've had the *ist DS, K200D, K-R and K-5. My lenses are all Sigma / Tamron, again with value in mind. I've recently shopped Pentax lenses, specifically the DA 35 2.4 and the D FA 100 2.8 WR macro. I've been close to buying both of these recently but did not and now they've jumped in price. Now I am reevaluating my brand. With the value advantage gone, I'd rather shoot with a big name. I frequently shoot side by side with the big names and I didn't mind being the odd Pentax owner due to the value advantage. Without it, Canon and Nikon are looking pretty good now!
04-02-2012, 07:09 AM   #139
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except for the fact that changing will cost you more Dave as you are already vested in gear. An I don't see cankon offering any savings. once the price settles late this week i think Pentax will still be the value, but in reality it hasn't been the really cheap option in a longtime ( particularly on lenses Hoya killed that)

04-02-2012, 07:23 AM - 1 Like   #140
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Look at it this way.

Does Pentax need B&H or Adorama or is it that these retailers need Pentax?

Unilateral pricing is not against the law because it is a minimum price not in contract. it is simply a warning to retailers that if they sell below the MSRP that retailer may cut off from distribution.

The keyword is "may".

It rarely happens because manufacturers have distribution issues. Most are not Apple and do not have their own web and brick and mortar stores.

It is illegal if both the retailer and manufacturer agree to set the price. If they arrive at pricing independently it is not illegal.

I doubt Pentax is in a position to drop distributors and retailers through unilateral mechanisms. What Pentax can do is control the supply to limit non-authorized sales, and hopefully keep the MSRP within target.

What is key here is if the manufacturer's threat to unilaterally withdraw distribution has any bearing on the market. With Pentax, I doubt it. I see this as a cover to keep a lid on grey market activity and rein in some distribution and also inventory levels.

Demand will fall if prices rise, so I Pentax wants less market share, then they'll MSRP up.
04-02-2012, 07:43 AM   #141
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another reason for me to love my kit lens.
04-02-2012, 08:00 AM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Look at it this way.

Does Pentax need B&H or Adorama or is it that these retailers need Pentax?

Unilateral pricing is not against the law because it is a minimum price not in contract. it is simply a warning to retailers that if they sell below the MSRP that retailer may cut off from distribution.

The keyword is "may".

It rarely happens because manufacturers have distribution issues. Most are not Apple and do not have their own web and brick and mortar stores.

It is illegal if both the retailer and manufacturer agree to set the price. If they arrive at pricing independently it is not illegal.

I doubt Pentax is in a position to drop distributors and retailers through unilateral mechanisms. What Pentax can do is control the supply to limit non-authorized sales, and hopefully keep the MSRP within target.

What is key here is if the manufacturer's threat to unilaterally withdraw distribution has any bearing on the market. With Pentax, I doubt it. I see this as a cover to keep a lid on grey market activity and rein in some distribution and also inventory levels.

Demand will fall if prices rise, so I Pentax wants less market share, then they'll MSRP up.
Posters should inform themselves of what is happening here before they make rash decisions. Gear buyers should know that Time and Price speculation rarely works out in favor of the buyer. Pentax is not necessarily forcing MSRP on the market. They are sending a signal that high volume sales of inventory purchased indirectly (not from Pentax but from an intermediate distributor) and resold cross-border or even within borders will be discouraged. The market will go through a period of price discovery and information seeking that will be distressing to dreamers who have not yet purchased, but the final outcome is not necessarily as bad as we project. We always fear the worst --

For example, compare the price of the K-5 at B&H, Adorama, Abe's, Amazon and the Pentax Webstore. The Webstore is actually a better deal than almost all of them. When's the last time you saw that?

Understand that if you want support in the USA - things like service better than C.R.I.S., marketing, telephone and email Customer Service where the responders are actual Pentax employees with knowlege (not a contractor), local workshops, Dealer Sales Reps, inventory in local retail stores, an effective internet presence, media relations including internet review site relationships (and the list goes on) - if you want Pentax in the USA to be more like Nikon than like a commodity camera maker - you might have to pay for all those soft benefits. Markets such as many countries in Europe, the Pacific Basin, Hong Kong, Japan, to a degree Canada - those markets don't have our problems - yet.

I find it fascinating that an Australian poster here lamented the DA60-250 went up in price before he hit his cart. Good Grief, if B&H beats the local Australian market price after currency conversion and $50 shipping something is seriously out of line. Same if the Australian distributor doesn't have inventory.

See Resale Price Maintenance and the q.v. links at the end.
04-02-2012, 08:57 AM   #143
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Good Grief, if B&H beats the local Australian market price after currency conversion and $50 shipping something is seriously out of line.
Same in South Africa -- B&H beats local prices hands down (or did). Before now, I would not have considered purchasing a new Pentax lens from a local dealer because the prices at Adorama and B&H are (were) much lower (even with s+h & import VAT), and they usually have stock. OTOH local Sigma lens prices are very often lower than US import prices.

Now... I certainly wouldn't buy the 60-250 for $2000 from Adorama or B&H -- I can get it new shipped to S.Africa for much less on eBay. Of course, the difficulty of getting after-sales service on a likely SDM failure stops me.


Last edited by Gray; 04-02-2012 at 09:22 AM.
04-02-2012, 09:10 AM - 1 Like   #144
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
except for the fact that changing will cost you more Dave as you are already vested in gear. An I don't see cankon offering any savings. once the price settles late this week i think Pentax will still be the value, but in reality it hasn't been the really cheap option in a longtime ( particularly on lenses Hoya killed that)
Used lenses fetch a good price, though, if they are in excellent condition.

Here's my take:

Suppose I configure a Pentax kit and a Nikon (for instance) kit. They are different kits, but I like them equally. For the sake of argument, let's say the Nikon kit is 10% more expensive. What is that +10% getting me?

+ Better QC. Yeah, every make has it's issues, but anecdotally Pentax QC seems to be worse
+ Greater selection of lenses and accessories
+ Support and distribution, both e-tail and B&M
+ 5 year warranty on every Nikon AF lens
+ FF upgrade path
- No more SR on every lens, which, unless I have a thing for older lenses, is becoming less relevant as many newer lens have OS built-in
- Some unique Pentax primes

Pentax hasn't given us anything to merit price increases. Outside of the experience of using the gear, Pentax comes up short vs Canikon.

I'm sincerely hoping that prices settle down soon.
04-02-2012, 09:18 AM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Pentax hasn't given us anything to merit price increases. Outside of the experience of using the gear, Pentax comes up short vs Canikon.

I'm sincerely hoping that prices settle down soon.
Or the shortfalls rise to a level competitive enough to merit the higher prices. We allways forget Ricoh wants to compete.

We're all thinking in the past - conditioned to the expectation set of the old, conservative Pentax or the Hoya-Pentax. This is something new.

Be of good cheer, Pentaxians. Ricoh has a plan and you will be happy.
04-02-2012, 09:20 AM   #146
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I completely agree.

The pricing issue will resolve itself. It just might not be today, tomorrow, or even next week. It could be months, unfortunately.

QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Pentax hasn't given us anything to merit price increases.
04-02-2012, 09:23 AM   #147
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Thing is for Ricoh to provide the things Nikon and canon do they too have to have the income to do it. so do the dealers. Nikon and canon (and Sony) already have dealer agreements like this. From a B&M standpoint this type of thing keeps enough profit in the brand to keep it on assortment getting services at the local level relies on this. If Pentax is gearing up to offer a fuller lineup (say 3 apsc and a FF) and launch a broader assortment of lenses while pursuing better distribution they have to have something to bring the dealers to them and a policy that helps ensure a certain level of profitability is a big part of it. Lenses are a more dynamic aexample than camera bodies. you have to stock a fairly broad selection to be in the business but compared to bodies they don't turn over as quickly. if the profit is beingf stripped by lowball deals from online retail you probably won't stock the lenses. It may well be as part of tis support Pentax is looking for dealers to also carry a much broader spectrum of the line on the floor and get support in co-op etc.
the big thing is you don't get something for nothing.

All that being said I still think you will be able to assemble an excellent k5 apsc kit for less than a comparable D7000 kit with equal or better iq.

As for the repair breakdown record, your right it's anecdotal. In fact I doubt Pentax' record is any different than canon Nikon or Sony. this board gives a very distorted view, and many of the problems keep coming up long after they have ceased to be an issue (for instance i still see people asking about sensor stains more than a year after it was solved - i don't see the same level of confusion on the hot pixel issue the D7000 had
04-02-2012, 09:40 AM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Or the shortfalls rise to a level competitive enough to merit the higher prices. We allways forget Ricoh wants to compete.

QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Thing is for Ricoh to provide the things Nikon and canon do they too have to have the income to do it. so do the dealers. Nikon and canon (and Sony) already have dealer agreements like this. From a B&M standpoint this type of thing keeps enough profit in the brand to keep it on assortment getting services at the local level relies on this. If Pentax is gearing up to offer a fuller lineup (say 3 apsc and a FF) and launch a broader assortment of lenses while pursuing better distribution they have to have something to bring the dealers to them and a policy that helps ensure a certain level of profitability is a big part of it. Lenses are a more dynamic aexample than camera bodies. you have to stock a fairly broad selection to be in the business but compared to bodies they don't turn over as quickly. if the profit is beingf stripped by lowball deals from online retail you probably won't stock the lenses. It may well be as part of tis support Pentax is looking for dealers to also carry a much broader spectrum of the line on the floor and get support in co-op etc.
the big thing is you don't get something for nothing.
...and I can get behind all that. However, give us the goods at the same time you increase the prices. Superficially, this is looking like a money-grab.


QuoteQuote:
All that being said I still think you will be able to assemble an excellent k5 apsc kit for less than a comparable D7000 kit with equal or better iq.
Yes, but the extra $$ for Nikon gets you a lot more outside the physical gear.

QuoteQuote:
As for the repair breakdown record, your right it's anecdotal. In fact I doubt Pentax' record is any different than canon Nikon or Sony. this board gives a very distorted view, and many of the problems keep coming up long after they have ceased to be an issue (for instance i still see people asking about sensor stains more than a year after it was solved - i don't see the same level of confusion on the hot pixel issue the D7000 had
Even if, on a % basis, the QC (and I'm thinking mainly lenses) is the same, with my $1000 (or even $90) Nikon lens I have a 5 year warranty, compared to 1 from Pentax. If there's an equipment issue, I can go to a local camera shop to get help, something that's rare for Pentax.
04-02-2012, 10:03 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
...and I can get behind all that. However, give us the goods at the same time you increase the prices. Superficially, this is looking like a money-grab.
You realise it is the dealer not Pentax that will benefit here.



QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Even if, on a % basis, the QC (and I'm thinking mainly lenses) is the same, with my $1000 (or even $90) Nikon lens I have a 5 year warranty, compared to 1 from Pentax. If there's an equipment issue, I can go to a local camera shop to get help, something that's rare for Pentax.
Warranty is part of the cost of the product. One of the reasons Nikon costs more for lenses is the warranty. As for the local camera shop refer back to giving the local shop a reason to carry the line. protecting them on price gives them incentive. If a $500 msrp lens that costs $300 is frequently being sold at an online dealers for $340 why would you carry a line like that. if that same lens has a price floor of $420 then you are much more open to the idea. Opening up local B&M means a multi tier approach. unfortunately as it sits they need this in place to make the next step succeed. so for the short term (ie the next few months) this probably will hurt sales but the long term view needs to be taken on their end. Hoya was not in the long term view business they were in the make it attractive for a quick sale business

EDIT I will add on the warranty in Canada the Warranty is 2 years. I agree lenses should have a longer warranty as well since up here Nikon and Tamron are 5 years and Sigma is 10
04-02-2012, 10:15 AM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by boriscleto Quote
Why? I love these threads. So many people to add to the ignore list.
Don't ignore me! There's always the marketplace on here if I need equipment! :P
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