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03-30-2012, 06:51 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
If it's like the Sony and Nikon policy it will be minimum advertised price not minimum sell price. It will maintain margins at a level that will allow Brick and mortoar guys to compete and provide service to you. Currently you may not have a local dealer but I also got the impression from CES that PRIC was working on developing their dealer network. Having a policy like this in place makes a brand more appealing to dealers because they know they aren't up against rogue online ads that sell too low for them to compete I would view it as a good thing given the number of people i see complaining about a lack of local shops. there is a reason for that lack and this helps address it (just as Sony and Nikon have)
AFAIK you cannot specifically set a sell price for a dealer but you can control advertised prices
Thank you! Someone finally gets it. Readers need to take all the changes Ricoh and Pentax Ricoh Imaging are making in context with each other. They are part of a carefully developed plan and a thoughtful orchestration process. Do not interpret each indivdual action as a stand-alone decision. Evaluate them as steps, together, in the context of Ricoh rebuilding the Pentax brand into a significant choice in the digital photography marketplace.

Be of good cheer, Pentaxians. Riocoh has a plan and you will be happy.

03-30-2012, 07:29 AM   #47
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This all sounds good .
I can see in 25 years Pentax will be just as much of a brand as canikon... Well we can hope?

Having said that- I do enjoy being different
03-30-2012, 07:39 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
If it's like the Sony and Nikon policy it will be minimum advertised price not minimum sell price. It will maintain margins at a level that will allow Brick and mortoar guys to compete and provide service to you. Currently you may not have a local dealer but I also got the impression from CES that PRIC was working on developing their dealer network. Having a policy like this in place makes a brand more appealing to dealers because they know they aren't up against rogue online ads that sell too low for them to compete I would view it as a good thing given the number of people i see complaining about a lack of local shops. there is a reason for that lack and this helps address it (just as Sony and Nikon have)
AFAIK you cannot specifically set a sell price for a dealer but you can control advertised prices
This was already the arrangement they had - that's why for some Pentax lenses on B&H for example, you'd have to do the "click here to see the price in your cart" thing - because the lens fell under the minimum price required to advertise it. What they're switching to now is a system whereby B&H simply couldn't even price the lens that low, or Pentax would refuse to keep selling to them.
03-30-2012, 08:20 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
If it's like the Sony and Nikon policy it will be minimum advertised price not minimum sell price. It will maintain margins at a level that will allow Brick and mortoar guys to compete and provide service to you. Currently you may not have a local dealer but I also got the impression from CES that PRIC was working on developing their dealer network. Having a policy like this in place makes a brand more appealing to dealers because they know they aren't up against rogue online ads that sell too low for them to compete I would view it as a good thing given the number of people i see complaining about a lack of local shops. there is a reason for that lack and this helps address it (just as Sony and Nikon have)
AFAIK you cannot specifically set a sell price for a dealer but you can control advertised prices
It's not simply not having Pentax carried by the locals, there are no local stores.

03-30-2012, 08:28 AM   #50
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As Rupert posted earlier that may not be possible in New york state due to laws.
Legally you cannot do it here in Canada, you can restrain supply legally though which is what Sony would do for years when i was in the CE business. dealers that disrupted the market consistently had a hard time getting supply
03-30-2012, 08:29 AM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
It's not simply not having Pentax carried by the locals, there are no local stores.
At all??? not even for canikon??? no Best buy even??
03-30-2012, 08:33 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
None of us knows that yet - but if it does, please understand - you can't have low prices and all the things we ask Pentax to do on these pages.
Please, understand that the extra money we're going to pay stays with the dealers, not Pentax.

So, your argument doesn't hold true on closer inspection.

In case of retail stores, it may be a good thing as they may promote the brand better. However, I like the Pentax way here in Germany better: dealers with a better volume earn "points" which entitles them for free advertisement (ads paid by Pentax which then promote Pentax & the dealer).

The problem are online stores or or almost online stores, like Amazon and B&H: the extra money we're going to pay just stays with them making them unbelievably rich (we're talking billionairs here) without doing any good for the brand.

The only way around is to ship to retail stores and reserve the the online business mostly to the vendor itself, assuming they're capable of setting it up properly. Another case where Apple may serve as the lead example: Preserve retail price w/o making box shifters unbelievably rich (because of protected prices).
03-30-2012, 08:45 AM   #53
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Your right Falk, but of course extra money staying with dealers isn't all bad. if there is a minimum price ceiling that margins are decent at then more dealers at the B&M side may come back on board in the US
the US market is really very different than the European or canadian markets. the model for avoiding state taxes really screws the local B&M guy unless he too is a big online player
so anything that helps level the field a little makes a big difference for the smaller guys
Personally I will buy new product locally every time. I can't avoid the tax in any way no matter where i buy. I will however shop the web and local for the best price available. If it's a larger item like a lens or a body I will always buy it within Canada for the warranty. I've really never seen a case where I would save enough cross border to give up a warranty (or get a shorter one). Generally the price variance is not that much. Certainly when our dollar was worth 0.82 USD sometimes the US looked cheaper until you did the math. and in the 6 months to a year it took for prices to normalize after our dollar rose to par there was an exception since the exchange gap was gone before the landed cost could adjust

03-30-2012, 09:43 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Please, understand that the extra money we're going to pay stays with the dealers, not Pentax.

So, your argument doesn't hold true on closer inspection.

In case of retail stores, it may be a good thing as they may promote the brand better. However, I like the Pentax way here in Germany better: dealers with a better volume earn "points" which entitles them for free advertisement (ads paid by Pentax which then promote Pentax & the dealer).

The problem are online stores or or almost online stores, like Amazon and B&H: the extra money we're going to pay just stays with them making them unbelievably rich (we're talking billionairs here) without doing any good for the brand.

The only way around is to ship to retail stores and reserve the the online business mostly to the vendor itself, assuming they're capable of setting it up properly. Another case where Apple may serve as the lead example: Preserve retail price w/o making box shifters unbelievably rich (because of protected prices).
As predicted, no matter what Pentax does there's a reason to complain about it.

Falk, what makes you so sure that Pentax will let the larger dealers just suck up all that extra money like catfish at the bottom of the dam? We don't know the global/regional/country marketing strategy yet.


We don't know whether:
  1. Dealer minimum guarantees won't be altered
    1. We don't know whether online, no-service retailers won't have a different pricing schedule from local B&M
  2. Co-Op ad revenue will be available to local shops (Pentax co-op advertises with a dealer in ST. LOUIS, right now, this week)
  3. Co-Op advertsiing won't be available to the online merchants
    1. The additional profit, should it accrue, won't make the brand more attractive to them.
  4. Local shiops will be covered by a local rep and Amazon, Adorama, B&H will be covered as National Accounts
  5. Wholesale prices won't also be managed to allow attractive profit margins to local stores.
  6. Any of a host of other channel management techniques PRI could use.
This is one element, of many elements, of Ricoh's plan to rebuild the Pentax brand. We don't know all the elements yet. We don't know how Unilateral Pricing fits into the distribution strategy. We don't know what the item prices will be. We don't know whether Pentax intends to make a fair, level price with fewer rebates, and earn the same money over time. I consider that a better deal than speculative purchase timing.

In fact, we really don't know very much at all.

That doesn't even begin to discuss who cares if bigger dealers make more money - that's the way capitalism works. Do you think someone should tell Pentax and B&H how to do business so that I get to have things the way I want them? It isn't my company (well, not very much of it anyway). If I don't like it I can always buy something else, or not buy camera things at all. It's a decision, not a right or an obligation.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-30-2012 at 02:33 PM.
03-30-2012, 09:44 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
of course extra money staying with dealers isn't all bad.
I already said this. However, extra money staying with online only dealers is bad. They can use it for aggressive marketing and redundant outlet stores killing what has remained from B&M stores. They can even re-import and avoid any pricing strategy actually making it impossible to compete on price for retail stores.
03-30-2012, 09:46 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Please, understand that the extra money we're going to pay stays with the dealers, not Pentax.

So, your argument doesn't hold true on closer inspection.

In case of retail stores, it may be a good thing as they may promote the brand better. However, I like the Pentax way here in Germany better: dealers with a better volume earn "points" which entitles them for free advertisement (ads paid by Pentax which then promote Pentax & the dealer).

The problem are online stores or or almost online stores, like Amazon and B&H: the extra money we're going to pay just stays with them making them unbelievably rich (we're talking billionairs here) without doing any good for the brand.

The only way around is to ship to retail stores and reserve the the online business mostly to the vendor itself, assuming they're capable of setting it up properly. Another case where Apple may serve as the lead example: Preserve retail price w/o making box shifters unbelievably rich (because of protected prices).
The key is for Brick and Mortar shops to stay in business. If they are in red ink, that isn't gong to happen. They have to be able to sell Pentax by promoting it themselves in addition to Pentax and give customers that there is a support network.
03-30-2012, 09:50 AM   #57
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I already said this. However, extra money staying with online only dealers is bad. They can use it for aggressive marketing and redundant outlet stores killing what has remained from B&M stores. They can even re-import and avoid any pricing strategy actually making it impossible to compete on price for retail stores.
And Pentax can refuse to sell through them if they do, which is the entire point. I'd bet ProDigital goes Pentax dark in a trice (leaving their parent company as the dealer).

It is part of a plan. Next steps include supporting local B&M retailers. Believe me, they do it in St. Louis even now. Creve Couer Camera stocks Pentax equipment, new and used. CCC runs ads on radio and television featuring Pentax products - this week!! CCC features Pentax products as A-Placement items on their website. Pentax products get counter and shelf space in all 9 stores. Salesmen will not steer sales away from Pentax.

It is being done here and it can be done anywhere.
03-30-2012, 09:53 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
And Pentax can refuse to sell through them if they do, which is the entire point. I'd bet ProDigital goes Pentax dark in a trice (leaving their parent company as the dealer).

It is part of a plan. Next steps include supporting local B&M retailers. Believe me, they do it in St. Louis even now. Creve Couer Camera stocks Pentax equipment, new and used. CCC runs ads on radio and television featuring Pentax products - this week!! CCC features Pentax products as A-Placement items on their website. Pentax products get counter and shelf space in all 9 stores. Salesmen will not steer sales away from Pentax.

It is being done here and it can be done anywhere.
I think there should be a distinction between strictly online stores and B&M stores that sell online such as BH, Adorama, 17th Street, 47th street etc.
03-30-2012, 09:58 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
That doesn't even begin to discuss who cares if bigger dealers make more money - that's the way capitalism works.
No, it is not. Capitalism in any country lives in a system of rules or otherwise nobody will like the result. Which is why there is legislation what vendors can tell dealers to do. Or what warranties customers have to receive. Etc.

And we care because it makes a difference if our money goes to Pentax or online billionairs. The difference is in future products Pentax can develop.

And fixed prices will have the effect I mentioned. Except if Pentax doesn't sell to B&H & Co. anymore or only at a higher price. Both are not going to happen of course. No way. IMHO, a fixed price policy only makes sense the way Apple is living it.
03-30-2012, 10:05 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
No, it is not. Capitalism in any country lives in a system of rules or otherwise nobody will like the result. Which is why there is legislation what vendors can tell dealers to do. Or what warranties customers have to receive. Etc.

And we care because it makes a difference if our money goes to Pentax or online billionairs. The difference is in future products Pentax can develop.

And fixed prices will have the effect I mentioned. Except if Pentax doesn't sell to B&H & Co. anymore or only at a higher price. Both are not going to happen of course. No way. IMHO, a fixed price policy only makes sense the way Apple is living it.
The only way to get Pentax for many of us in the U.S. is through Adorama or BH if you want any kind of support. In fact, I woulds say that is true for the majority of Us. The Atlanta market for example is a joke except for KEH.
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