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04-09-2012, 09:54 PM   #631
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@oklahomakid93

Nice to see that reason has prevailed. A well put and nicely thought out reply. Kudos.

04-09-2012, 10:49 PM   #632
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QuoteOriginally posted by wizofoz Quote
@oklahomakid93

Nice to see that reason has prevailed. A well put and nicely thought out reply. Kudos.
It was nicely put, but I am starting to think thetwo sides of the argument are like apples and oranges. In addition to being upset about the price increase, for which there is no known benefit, some of us are upset to see Pentax repeatedly doing things to damage its relationship with customers. No business justification can make this okay, because business decisions inherently do not address the issue.

I have two sigma lenses, and they both pale in comparison to the average quality of my pentax lenses, so I am hesitant to go that route.
04-09-2012, 11:13 PM   #633
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QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
News to me, too. But Sony increased their prices 10%, which still means Pentax is unique.
It isn't as if Sony needed more money out of their lenses, is it?
04-09-2012, 11:25 PM   #634
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Some forum members seem to be less than pleased about the complaining thats going on about the new lens price structure. So now this thread has evolved to complaints about the complaints about the price list . Perhaps we should all just try to be happy

Frankly, i think all the complaining, noise and general chaotic behavior is simply a small sign of democracy in action. Its a healthy sign after all. If one is tired of the discussion, as will eventually happen, all one has to do is to unsubscribe to the thread. so simple (happiness is highly overrated, BTW)

04-10-2012, 01:01 AM - 3 Likes   #635
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QuoteOriginally posted by Docrwm Quote
It is all well and good to make statements like this but the reality is that for many people they simply do not have the liquidity to make a $2500-3000 systems change quickly, easily, or in many cases at all. Those people are expressing their frustration at the Pentax changes and their frustration may be exacerbated by their feeling trapped in the system with no way out. I do not think it as simple as you make out that they are merely whining or making hollow threats. Certainly, in any group, there are the windbags but in this case there is the very real issue of the extremely high cost of just up and changing systems.
(I tend to agree with the general message of your post, however ...)

1. Many of those who are complaining claim the system change is worth it now, since they can get a good price for their used Pentax lenses. While I feel the pain of those who were saving for a certain lens, I have no sympathy for those who whine and claim it is worth jumping to another brand at the same time. It is simple: you think it is worth it - go for it! Personally I have no brand loyalty what's so ever. If I see a better deal on something I'm looking for I will just get it.

2. Initially we all make decisions. It's a lot of "commitment" when you pick a brand. Pentax used to be good value for a reason, the company was not doing well (it was obvious for some time). Choosing Pentax (in digital era) you accept the extra risks it involves. Now Pentax has to think about surviving rather than directly competing with Nikon/Canon and better value may be hard to offer. I'm approving long term decisions versus short term benefits even at the cost of temporary price increases. For all those who are predicting Pentax's coming fall, cheer up, it probably means that prices will eventually drop anyway. So my expectation is: 1) either Pentax sees a revival and prices will eventually be where the market dictates them to be or 2) Pentax will die and at its end the prices will drop and if they don't who cares about prices if Pentax dies anyway (we will need to move to other systems anyway at some point)

3. I really have hard time understanding those who jump ship so quickly even though it is rather obvious that time is needed for things (including the price) to settle. Come on it's been only a few days! I totally respect your decision though. If you want to spend money right now and something else is a better deal than Pentax, go for it. It is as simple as that. (But then again, I'm personally not going for impulsive decisions and prefer long term planning which in my case can not be affected by such a boring and common thing as (temporary) price increase, especially because I don't really need to buy anything else )

4. I hear many posters mentioning Pentax historically being a "good value". I assume it was even true at some point. Personally I feel it has not been the case (at least it wasn't obvious to an unbiased buyer) for the last couple of years and maybe even longer. (think introductory K-5 price for instance which was overpriced as noted by virtually all early reviewers). Or look how many people have been picking Nikon/Canon over Pentax for so many years. For many of them who were aware of Pentax, their choice (Nikon or Canon) did seem as a better value. How good is the value totally depends on circumstances: the person, their needs and time time of the year. In my case Nikon seamed a slightly better value 1 day before I purchased my K-5 and K-5 became a better value through a lightning deal by Amazon. In an instant Pentax became a better value for me just by a little bit - I'm sure I would have been equally happy with Nikon though.

My approach (and it may be helpful to those who feel being let down by Pentax) is:

1. At the time you buy into a system, consider all pros and cons, evaluate the risks (it doesn't have to be extensive scientific research, common sens is enough).
2. Buy stuff (new system, new body new lens, ... anything) only when you need it. And go with the best value (value includes price, warranties, brand stability, anything you can think of) at that moment.
3. Don't regret your decision. Understand, that any day market situation can change and something else happens to be a better value the next day after your purchase.
4. If you are happy with your setup, keep using it, there is really little reason to move to something (unknown) else unless you have the money and want to play with new toys.
5. If you are not satisfied with your system and see better value on a tool you really need elsewhere, go for it. (It really doesn't matter what brand name is written on your camera. If it does, you should include it in evaluating the "value" for you). Just keep in mind, market situation changes every day and you may regret your decision. (Normally can be avoided by not following your impulses)
6. Know your limits. Buy only when you have enough resources. Don't buy things which cost more than you are willing to pay for them. Look for alternatives or postpone your purchase if there are none. Vote with your wallet. Things tend to go down in price if people stop buying.

Last edited by vanyagor; 04-10-2012 at 02:05 AM.
04-10-2012, 01:46 AM   #636
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QuoteOriginally posted by PushTheRedButton Quote
If you've read what I've posted, thanks and I'll end with this question:

Aside from all speculation about what Pentax is doing, there is currently no official word on anything other than prices. Knowing that, if you had a week to decide on keeping the K5 and risking nothing happens with Pentax (they make no new lenses (until 2013 like their roadmap suggests) or fail to officially acknowledge and fix the SDM issue) or would you spend a little more on a FF body (that you keep for the rest of your life and never need to buy another) with another reputable company with a larger selection of glass?

Thanks for your input, please don't burn me at the stake
I am totally on the same page with you regarding the intention of buying a tool I like and keeping it forever (even though it is probably not realistic nowadays - people change their tools so fast (and that happens because of the aggressive marketing that is trying to convince us we need to buy the newest tool every time) that it is not cost effective for manufacturers to produce reliable equipment).

On FullFrame (and in general) I stick to this approach which has been very efficient for me: buy what you need. If you feel you need/want a FF go for it.

Personally I was sure I need FF (having been spoiled by film), however it was out of my price range when I was buying my dSLR (it still is). After having used my K-5 for the last 4 months, I feel I do not need a FF at all.

K-5 does everything I want in a much smaller/lighter package. (And even being one of the smallest and lightest APS-C cameras of that level, it is still quite heavy My current setup I'm totally happy with cost me less than the cheapest FF body): I payed ~$1300 for my set up brand new, while now the best deal on FF is $1800 for Canon 5D Mark II body only (not the latest model).

Another important factor: you have mentioned you are new to photography. This is a good reason not to rush your decisions. Your needs may change very much as you get deeper into this hobby.

So finally, answering your question:
Personally I'd "risk" staying with Pentax unless buying the 16-50 was something you were planning to do asap. The key "scale tipping" reason for me would have been my expectation that Pentax resale value will not drop anytime soon and FF options (by various manufacturers) will be more and more affordable with time. If Pentax lens prices will remain high, you should be able to resell your lenses at a good price and move to FF whenever and you don't need to rush it.

On the other hand if you are 100% sure you want a FF, I don't see any reason sticking to Pentax.

Last edited by vanyagor; 04-10-2012 at 02:09 AM.
04-10-2012, 02:31 AM - 1 Like   #637
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattdm Quote
So, um, here's the thing with pricing. One of a few things can happen:
  1. They'll sell a number of lenses they deem satisfactory at the current prices, and nothing will change.
  2. They don't sell what they were hoping at the new prices, and the prices are dropped again.
  3. They don't sell what they were hoping at the new prices, and something else changes (new designs, extended warranties, other promotions) to make up for it.
  4. They don't sell what they want and suddenly and amazingly vanish from the planet with no warning.
.
and can I add #5:

5. They are not too concerned if sales in the U.S. decline because their focus is on entering new markets in China and India where the middle class is growing rapidly and will be wanting lots and lots of flashy new consumer goodies, and Canon and Nikon do not already own the market.

Just a thought
04-10-2012, 03:20 AM   #638
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
Some forum members seem to be less than pleased about the complaining thats going on about the new lens price structure. So now this thread has evolved to complaints about the complaints about the price list . Perhaps we should all just try to be happy

Frankly, i think all the complaining, noise and general chaotic behavior is simply a small sign of democracy in action. Its a healthy sign after all. If one is tired of the discussion, as will eventually happen, all one has to do is to unsubscribe to the thread. so simple (happiness is highly overrated, BTW)
I don't know. I think it is more that Ricoh's "plan" will become clearer in time. It is just that a little patience will make a difference in our analysis of the situation. The K5 does still work well and shooting with third party lenses for the time being is an option. For many people, either the Tamron 17-50 or the Sigma 17-50 were better options than the DA 16-50, even before the price increase.

However, if Ricoh plans on releasing lenses that are improved over the 16-50 and 50-135 (even if they cost more money), I'm all for it. It looks to me like they are phasing out all lenses with SDM in them, but who really knows?

04-10-2012, 03:37 AM   #639
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WOW, this sure is one most interesting threads. Have to try to not burn my fingers, but seems quite logical for me to make prices in balance with other continents...I live in Finland, so you might know those "new" prices are something we have at here for now. And to look for new DA-L lenses, which goes for cheaper price it makes sense to rise prices for premium stuff, eh'.

Tha and evident line of making more cheaper stuff and more DA* stuff +(maybe) some FF stuff it makes even more sense. This sounds to me like making one to be taken more seriously. Too cheap pricetag can turn interested buyers away too. It takes a while to find a balance at here too. It has been about 4 months since ricoh took over, this is just beginnig.

I guess, question will be, can Pentax really compete Canikon more that just pricewise, or does it have products with quality to compete. Within boudaries they can reach? Have to remember that this D800 vs D645 referred before and other stuff...which is new engineering and which is old, and still compareable, if needed. What will be new products from Pentax?! so cool down a little.

Just my 2 cents...
...sorry about my bad english... have a nice day
04-10-2012, 03:53 AM   #640
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If Pentax (they're owned by Ricoh now but still, they're Pentax) would release an improved 16-50, with better optics and ring-type SDM or equivalent, I'd be tempted. I usually prefer primes but sometimes a zoom works better. For now, it looks like they have plans for a wider range DA*, not sure they can do it f/2.8 (probably f/4, but if it's really good...)
Or maybe the Limited zoom? (Outrageous! Further dilution of the Limited name! Burn the infidels! )

vanyagor, nicely said!
What amused me on a certain another forum, were people claiming they were literally waiting for years (while clinging to some entry level equipment) to buy new lenses; and right now, in the exact moment when they finally managed to take the decision to do it, prices increased dramatically. Yeah, right.
It could happen, to have to choose now, e.g. if you're starting. For all the others, "wait&see" is, IMHO, a better strategy. Scared BHPhotovideo and Adorama are still keeping MSRP prices? Well, they're in vacation right now...
04-10-2012, 04:21 AM   #641
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
If Pentax (they're owned by Ricoh now but still, they're Pentax)
People write of Pentax as if they were still a company out of habit, I suppose. Pentax is a brand name owned by Ricoh now. Pentax as
a corporate entity was dissolved when Hoya bought them.
04-10-2012, 04:30 AM   #642
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Good grief, I was on Easter Holiday, spending my time with the family (which also meant going to nice places and taking a lot of photos (can you imagine?) together with my daughters), so I have no hope that I will ever be able to read this whole thread.

But I must say I was amazed when I realized that it must be the first time ever that the before-sales-tax price of several lenses (e.g. the 50-135 for less than USD 1200) is substantially lower here in ultra-expensive Norway than on BH Photo! But some lenses are still waaay more expensive over here, like the DA15 which costs about USD 900 (before sales tax).

I'm really puzzled by the price increase on the error-ridden SDM DA* lenses. Maybe they just want to stop selling them
04-10-2012, 05:21 AM   #643
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QuoteOriginally posted by baldeagle21b Quote
People write of Pentax as if they were still a company out of habit, I suppose. Pentax is a brand name owned by Ricoh now. Pentax as a corporate entity was dissolved when Hoya bought them.
And reappeared as Pentax Ricoh Imaging Company. Yes, a real company
04-10-2012, 06:41 AM   #644
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
It was nicely put, but I am starting to think thetwo sides of the argument are like apples and oranges. In addition to being upset about the price increase, for which there is no known benefit, some of us are upset to see Pentax repeatedly doing things to damage its relationship with customers. No business justification can make this okay, because business decisions inherently do not address the issue.

I have two sigma lenses, and they both pale in comparison to the average quality of my pentax lenses, so I am hesitant to go that route.
I have had some good Sigma lenses. In fact I have the 105mm/2.8 EX DG macro. It is excellent. However, about a year ago I got the D FA 100 WR and I will be selling the Sigma in the near future. I don't run Pentax bodies to specifically use Sigma or Tammy glass. I run Pentax glass.
04-10-2012, 07:34 AM - 2 Likes   #645
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
It was nicely put, but I am starting to think thetwo sides of the argument are like apples and oranges. In addition to being upset about the price increase, for which there is no known benefit, some of us are upset to see Pentax repeatedly doing things to damage its relationship with customers. No business justification can make this okay, because business decisions inherently do not address the issue.

I have two sigma lenses, and they both pale in comparison to the average quality of my pentax lenses, so I am hesitant to go that route.

Well, that is part of what had me struggling with the price hike. Quality control, a seemingly hush-hush approach to everything, and basically zero support abroad. However, it seems just when you think Pentax is done for, they reemerge with a killer product that can easily pick a fight with an in-class rival and win easily. FWIW, am I alone thinking it could have been easy for Pentax to have folded years ago? Well, they keep chugging along, and at this point, with a deep pocketed company like Ricoh in their corner, I have no reason to doubt they will continue trudging on, and eventually win over those of us that have questioned some (or most) of their tactics.

At the end of the day, I had to ask myself this: "Am I dis-satisfied with my camera and lenses to the point another system would benefit me?" The only answer I came up with is "Hell No!" Sure, I could sell my system, and I'm sure whatever I got into would be great, but my current set up is already excellent. I realized I was ready to pounce on a mis-understood business strategy and taking out my true lack of knowledge regarding what Ricoh is actually doing for the long-term prosperity of the brand. Heck, I still don't know. But what I do know is I love my K-5, I loved my K-7, and I'm quite happy with my lenses. So, lets assume the K-5 goes away....How many digital cameras from every camera company have been retired and became obsolete? And let me ask, how many of these "outdated and obsolete" cameras are still being used? I would say quite a few. For me, the K-5 is advanced enough to last me a long time and then some. It's compact and light enough to travel with me anywhere, and whether they quit making firmware updates or not, my camera's working fine....I'm not sure I need anymore.

So yes, it's a two sided question/reaction, but I see parallel in their existence with one another. Pentax was smart in the sense of attracting people to the brand with a historically great camera body, and many new customers aren't going to be as familiar with what lenses used to cost.

Anyway, as you can see my genetic code prevents me the ability to write something concise and directly to the point without having to write a novel, but I'm comfortable in my own skin, and I'm very happy with my K-5. I'm sure I'll get more cameras in the future, but for now, I'm set. Wait....Did I just quote a deodorant commercial?

Last edited by oklahomakid93; 04-10-2012 at 07:43 AM. Reason: poor spelling
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